Tier Discussion Thread

The fact that you are forced to run Sableye as a counter means that Lucario is just a lil bit broken, and the fact that you have to fodder off the counter you're running to beat him right after you do.

Fucking fantastic counter you've got right there, and it really proves how fucking balanced Mega Lucario is.

Uh, calm down? I wasn't arguing for or against Mega Lucario, or even calling Sableye a counter. I just wanted to correct the misleading information you put on your own list calling it one.

And for the record, Sableye can barely deal with the special set at all. Flash canon 2HKO's, and unlike the physical variant Sableye cannot weaken it.

Sorry I completely misinterpreted what you were trying to say. I thought you were arguing for Sableye as a counter. I've changed my list, so that it only lists counters for physical Mega Lucario as well.

I'm mad because I really want this gone before the first clan season starts because I'll have to redesign all of my teams around beating Mega Lucario if indeed it is allowed.

Ok, I have just updated the tiers page to include all of the recent tier changes.  Also, I have included a list of the relevant CANG tiers for the first time.  I also updated the CAP charts to include a section for the 'Creative' CAPs.

If I missed anything, especially with the CANG stuff, just let me know (or just change it if you are a mod).

Ok, I have just updated the tiers page to include the most recent changes from the latest vote.

Also, Doublade, Darkrai, and Lucarionite are still in Standard in CANG. Those all should be looked at for possible tier changes in the next set of nominations.

I have just updated the tiers page from the last vote. If I have missed anything, please let me know (or change it yourself).

Hello everyone, I know its been a while, but I've just now updated the tiers from the vote a few months ago. If you see any issues with the tiers page, just let me or someone else know (or change it yourself if you can).

Also, can we put the Pokémon in alphabetical order on the next vote? It would just be a lot easier editing the tiers page if that were so.

Aaaaaaaaaaaall right, I really hope that we can quickban Mega Mence when the server comes back online. It's just a bit too broken for my taste.

Immanency wrote:

Aaaaaaaaaaaall right, I really hope that we can quickban Mega Mence when the server comes back online. It's just a bit too broken for my taste.

Yeah, its Aerialite Return/Double Edge looks deadly, and it can actually perhaps survive Ice Shards due to base 130 defense and Intimidate.

It can EV itself so that it can 2hko Skarmory after 2 DDs with Return, and also so that a 252 Modest Rotom-W volt switch won't break its sub while it DDs.

WITH THE SAME SET.

On surviving Ice Shards, LO Adamant Mamoswine can do around 60% with an Ice Shard?

With the release of ORAS, there are a lot of new mega stones, most of which are still untiered. These should be looked at in the next tier vote. These untiered stones are the following: Alakazite, Altarianite, Audinite, Beedrillite, Cameruptite, Diancite, Galladite, Garchompite, Glalitite, Gyaradosite, Latiasite, Latiosite, Lopunnite, Mewtwoite X, Mewtwoite Y, Pidgeotite, Sablenite, Sceptilite, Scizorite, Sharpedonite, Slowbronite, Steelixite, Swampertite, Tyranitarite.
Also, I think that Klefki and Serperior could possibly not be Standard tier material. Klefki has the great typing and ability, but average-to-poor stats and not the greatest selection of moves. Serperior's hidden power got nerfed (slightly), and it's main Stab attack is leaf storm, which is resisted by a lot of Pokémon in standard. Serperior does have decent stats, and a great ability (Contrary) that pairs with Leaf Storm well, so there is that. What are your thoughts on this?

I was trolled very hard by a klefki recently in ORAS UU on PO Beta. But, this Klefki was using a hax moveset (thunderwave +  some bullshit, probably attract.) Since we have attract banned, the set is not usable. I think Klefki probably should drop while it has so many counters as it does now. If Mega-Sableye gets banned, I would say Klefki has a niche in Standard, being able to set up spikes, paralyze and potentially kill its 2 biggest remaining threats, Mega Diancie (Flash Cannon) and Espeon (Foul Play). Dual Screening is another area where Klefki shines, having access to both as priority moves and very good bulk and resistances. But, these jobs are not going to be desired by many teams, and it will be even less useful when your opponent can whip out Mega Sableye and start setting up.

All in all for Klefki, it doesn't do enough, and it's set up fodder for the biggest stall Pokemon out there.

Serperior I'd have to play to know, but I loved it in Gen 5, and it can legally have Dragon Pulse with Contrary now.

Serperior I'm definitely going to say is good enough for standard. Leaf Storm at +2 still hits very hard, even when resisted, and it can cover most of the Pokemon that resist it with Hidden Power/Dragon Pulse anyway. For example:

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 45-55 (15 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 183-217 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Combine the two and you get a guaranteed KO after Stealth Rock, meaning that even Mega-Altaria, a relatively bulky Pokemon that resists all of Serperior's moves, can't even switch in. The M-Alt HP is what I personally run, with max attack and enough speed to outspeed Adamant Excadrill.

Thoughts for other Pokemon that might be able to move down from standard: Espeon, Galvantula, Gastrodon, Infernape, Mandibuzz, Reuniclus, and Vaporeon.

Pokemon that I feel could move up to standard: Victini, Weavile, assuming Drizzle is unbanned in Creative then Politoed (seriously, Swift Swim + Drizzle is really hard to deal with), Breloom, Diggersby, Heracronite (how is this allowed in Creative?), possibly Heracross itself I'm not sure, and Staraptor.

@MKSLAYER97: I can see your point about Serperior there. As for the Pokémon you mentioned that could move up or down, I definitely agree with some of them (at least). I think Galvantula could definitely deserve to move down, as it's only (real) purpose in standard is to use Sticky Web. I think that Diggersby could deserve to move up to Standard, as it's basically a faster, slightly stronger, but less defensive Azumarill. It has stronger stab moves than Azumarill (Return + Earthquake compared to Aqua Tail + Play Rough), it has a Stab priority move like Azumarill (Quick Attack), it has U-Turn which is helpful for certain sets, and it gained quite a bit of new moves due to the ORAS move tutors (elemental punches, Gunk Shot, Superpower). I'm not sure about the rest; I would have to look at them further before I make a solid opinion of where they should be.

Oh, and also, on a related note, what the hell is Crawdaunt doing in Inspired? That thing should at least be in Creative, and with its power, I'd honestly prefer Standard.