March 2014 Tier Discussion Thread

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of March 2014. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

I want to encourage anyone who wants to nominate a CANG tier change to please post here about it first, there may be something about the Pokemon which is different in CANG that you aren't noticing. For example, if you didn't know Suppression Orb existed, you would probably think it was incredibly stupid to have Regigigas in Standard.

I'm just going to list off the things I think should be changed, there are way too many to feel like explaining all of them so if any seem bad to you, point it out, and I'll explain my reasoning.

To Standard
Dusclops
Mandibuzz

To Creative
Goodra
Diggersby
Hippowdon
Toxicroak
Haxorus
Dragalge

To CANG Standard
Mandibuzz
Staraptor

To CANG Creative
Apollyon
Torkedoe
Depthwatch
Wineshi
Slithaka
Centorpion
Chiro
Dragalge
Goodra
Diggersby
Hippowdon
Toxicroak
Haxorus

Metagross should move down to creative in CANG and non-CANG, it was barely able to hang on to its spot in gen 5, and now it gained 2 new weaknesses. I think Gyarados should move down too just due to more things coming into the game that deserve to be Standard more and the weather nerf.

Mandibuzz is already in standard...right?

Anyway, I generally agree with Invalid's post about what to move up / down. I also think that Stoutland and Venusaur should be moved down to creative, since they really got hurt by the weather nerf. If we have Kingdra in Creative, then we shouldn't have something like Stoutland in Standard.

I actually considered Venusaur, but I think since it's still quite usable in Standard and it has a Mega which is also quite usable in Standard, it didn't necessarily need to move down. I don't particularly care whether it does or not, that's just why I didn't mention it.

Kingdra is in Creative because of the Drizzle Swim situation, with it being unbanned for the time being. I think if we're going to have Drizzle Swim unbanned, which we probably should, that Kingdra should actually be Standard. The weather nerf has a minimal effect on offensive weather abusers because they don't require long lasting weather to do their job. The weather nerf is most crippling to stall weather abusers because they are required to stay in for a long time and need weather to do their job. Kingdra will still hit really hard, granted it will hit slightly less hard since Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor lost 10 bp each.

Stoutland should definitely move down, I was never much of a fan of having it in Standard to begin with.

I just remembered how we refined the Drizzle-Swim ban at the end of 5th gen, we can definitely ban things on a case by case basis for this generation. Kingdra and Ludicolo are the only ones I think would have a chance of needing to be banned with drizzle swim.

Deleted post because what the Truck was I saying.

I believe that either Kingdra or Politoed should be kept in Standard, but Drizzle Swim no longer needs to be Uber. The new weather mechanics make it a lot easier to stall out the rain. However, I don't think the idea of having SS Kingdra in UU is good, so I'd vote for a cancellation of Drizzle Swim, and Politoed to Standard.

There's no need to cancel the drizzle swim ban because it doesn't exist. all that would have to happen would be for Kingdra to be voted up.

Why Dusclops to Standard?

In gen 5 it was pretty good. Now there are two new things going for it. The rest mechanics allow it to use rest talk without having to be able to stay in for three turns in a row to cycle through. And a lot of damaging moves have had their bp lowered, making stall ever so slightly better.

What's different about Dragonite in Gen VI? Or perhaps it's different in CANG only?

Immanency wrote:

What's different about Dragonite in Gen VI? Or perhaps it's different in CANG only?

Well...FAIRIES. They completely resist Dragonite's strongest attacks, which has to lower Dragonite's effectiveness somewhat. However, most of the fairies in existence aren't really that great, as the only two fairies in standard currently are Togekiss and Azumarill.

Personally, I think that Dragonite should still be in standard, as Mulitscale Dragonite still is a decent threat. However, the mere presence of fairies weakens Dragonite's usefulness considerably, so I wouldn't be shocked if it moved down to Creative.

I'm just wondering...when is the vote going to happen? The deadline for nominations came and went a week or two ago.

On Dragonite: I nominated it for regular Creative just to see what everyone thought about it. The thing is truly hard countered by Togekiss, Who is Immune to Outrage and Earthquake, leaving its only two common coverage moves for it Fire Punch and Extreme Speed, neutral non-stab 75 and 80 BP moves, but I don't think for a second that a Pokemon having 1 or 2 solid counters in its home tier warrants moving it down a tier. As for Dragonite in CANG, I don't really think it can compete in CANG Standard, most CANG Pokemon are designed to be ideal sweepers that are usually better of than Dragonite, and there are even some CANG faries to deal with. Also any flying type in CANG is at an immediate disadvantage to other Pokemon because in CANG they're the only thing weak to Stealth Rock.

In closing, regular Dragonite should probably stay in Standard, but it should move in CANG to Creative.

^
Basically what I thought about Dragonite. Its still good; it just has some really hard counters now. Here are some relevant calculations for Dragonite:

252 Atk adamant Dragonite Thunder Punch vs 252 HP Adamant Azumarill: 54.9 - 64.8%
+1 252 Atk adamant Dragonite Thunder Punch vs 252 HP Adamant Azumarill: 82.1 - 97%
252 Atk adamant Dragonite Thunder Punch vs 252 HP Calm Togekiss: 51.3 - 60.9%
+1 252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Thunder Punch vs 252 HP Calm Togekiss: 77 - 90.9%

Basically, after a Dragon Dance boost, and with Stealth Rocks, Dragonite has the very real chance to 1HKO Azumarill and Togekiss. Now, if Togekiss does have some physical defense investment, then this may not happen (as the calculations were done with a Calm Togekiss). Dragonite could use Iron Tail or Stone Edge to better get the edge on Togekiss, but it would lose out on hitting Azumarill well.

In short, Dragonite can hit Azumarill and Togekiss well, but Dragonite would have to sacrifice a move slot for Thunder Punch, which wouldn't be ideal at times.

Dragonite now makes an excellent lure with ThunderPunch. In tournament or single matches, it makes sweeping far too simple for another dragon by luring in fairies and killing them with a set of DDance, DClaw, TPunch, and EQ. If not, it can totally sweep on its own. Opinions?

I don't think that Dragonite would work against Togekiss and Azumarill 100% of the time (in work, I mean KOing them), but it could certainly damage them to the point of the next dragon being able to take them out in one hit.

Also, some more calculations:
+1 252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Earthquake vs 252 HP Calm Sylveon: 65.9 - 77.9%
+1 252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Earthquake vs 252 HP Calm Diancle: 85.5 - 100.6%
252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Earthquake vs 252 HP Adamant Mega Mawile: 89.1 - 105.5%
+1 252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Earthquake vs 4 HP Hasty Dedenne: 231.8 - 273.1%

These are likely the other fairies that you will mainly see in standard play. Assuming that Dragonite has the DDance boost, it likely can get past Mega Mawile (factoring in Intimidate) and Diancle, but may struggle a bit against Sylveon.

Also, on a different note, what do you all think about Eternal Flower Floette?

Where do you all think it should be placed? Even if it can't use Evolite, its Light of Ruin attack looks pretty beastly. I would say that it belongs in standard, because of having 125 special attack, the 140 powered Light of ruin, decent speed, and the fact that Light of Ruin hits 51/69 current standard Pokémon for neutral or better damage.