Tier Discussion Thread

Invalid and I ran several bajillion damage calcs, and I think that Genesect could potentially be useable in the Creative tier. However, you're pretty silly in thinking that Celebi, Victini, or Staraptor would be checks for only one reason: Rock Polish. After it outspeeds, it can KO with Bug Buzz, Ice Beam/Thunderbolt, or Douse Buster.

This is our current list of reasonable checks and counters in Creative.

Counters - Quagsire, Porygon2, Dusclops
Checks - Cofagrigus, Snorlax, Wobuffet, Ditto
Boogey Man Checks - Cobalion, Rotom-H, Victini (Boogey Man Checks are only Checks if Genesect is lacking a certain move. Rotom-H and Victini are checks only if Gene doesn't have Douse Blast, Cobalion only without Flamethrower)

So, yeah, for the upcoming tier vote, Genesect Formes could definitely drop.

........ For Kyurem-B, I acknowledge he doesn't OHKO everything, but being able to 2HKO almost everything with one move is a huge issue. I've ran banded Haxorus before, and to me Kyurem-B is a complete upgrade. I'm still in favor of it being Uber regardless of Smogon's stance. Kyurem-B is too easy, It's generally the same reason Multiscale Dragonite went Uber. BST doesn't put a Pokemon in Uber, but it's worth noting that Kyruem-B (and W) have 700, more than everything but Arceus. IMO, Gamefreak was just pouring stats into until it would be good, and they went too far.

........ As for Raikou, it's just way too good for Creative, you may not have seen a CM Raikou in action before, but it's very hard to deal with. Raikou also doesn't need to go down because it's perfectly viable in Standard. Just because it might not be broken in Creative doesn't mean we should push it down to Creative where it will take usage away from the Pokemon that are down there because they aren't good enough for Standard.

........ Now for the part where I'm for something changing, Genesect's alternate forms will be very good in Creative. Will they be too powerful? maybe, but they aren't without checks and counters. Kingtrace and I went through damage calcs for the Rock Polish set, which will likely be the best, for about an hour and came up with a few viable options to deal with it.
Counters: Quagsire, Porygon2, Dusclops
Checks: Cofagrigus, Snorlax, Wobuffet, Ditto
Boogey Man Checks: Cobalion, Rotom-H, Victini
........ We didn't really come across anything that requires Genesect not to have Ice Beam or Thunderbolt in order to be a check, so as far as I can tell all the boogey man checks are taken care of by Rock Polish, Techno Buster(W), Flamethrower, Bug Buzz, without adding anything to the list. But there could be some that were over looked, and I'm still defaulting to not assuming Flamethrower or Techno Buster are each on every set. I can see the forms moving down and I'd vote for it, if it's a disaster we can just nominate it back up.

Spoiler:

NO LEGENDS TIER

IS BACK BITCHES!

I am Diogo and i disaprove of that post.

A few thoughts:

Is snow cloak / sand veil still banned with their respective weathers? I thought that those abilities were changed to not increase evasion, and if that is the case, they shouldn't be banned anymore.

Is a BL-like tier ever going to be created? I'm just curious, since it could be possible that some Pokemon are too good for creative and not good enough for standard for example.

Also, what do you all think of Tentacruel and Zapdos possibly being moved down to creative? I'm going to dive more in-depth into whether they should be in standard some point later, buthere are my thoughts right now:

Zapdos - it seems decent enough, but it can't handle certain Pokemon like Latios, Blissey, and Tyranitar well. In addition, it has the weakness to Stealth Rock, which limits the amount of times it can switch into battle (of course if SR is up). However, it has its own recovery move in Roost, has a good defensive typing, has two good abilities in Pressure and Lightningrod, and has moves that can hit many Pokemon super-effectively, or at least for neutral damage. So, this could go either way.

Tentacruel - it isn't a horrible Pokemon or anything, but it doesn't seem like the type of Pokemon that strikes fear into an opponent. Sure, it is a good user of Rapid Spin, and can be a good defensive Pokemon, especially in Rain. However, Tentcruel can't take physical hits too well, and it lacks the offenses to really be an offensive threat. It does get some good things though, like Rain Dish, Scald, and a decent-enough type combination in Water / Poison. An interesting point here is that there is no everlasting Rain in the creative tier, so Tentacruel arguably won't be as effective in creative than in standard, simply because rain dish wouldn't be a viable option.

My Comments are in Red:

steel dragons wrote:

A few thoughts:

Is snow cloak / sand veil still banned with their respective weathers? I thought that those abilities were changed to not increase evasion, and if that is the case, they shouldn't be banned anymore. They are still banned but only with their respective weathers, the change you mentioned is in next gen, we don't edit actual game mechanics in Standard.

Is a BL-like tier ever going to be created? I'm just curious, since it could be possible that some Pokemon are too good for creative and not good enough for standard for example. Pokemon that are too good for Creative are Standard. The reason Smogon has BL is because their tiers are decided by usage, BL is for Pokemon that are too good for UU, but aren't used enough to technically be OU. BL is something a Pokemon is voted into. For us there is no distinction, everything is voted.

Also, what do you all think of Tentacruel and Zapdos possibly being moved down to creative? I'm going to dive more in-depth into whether they should be in standard some point later, buthere are my thoughts right now:

Zapdos - it seems decent enough, but it can't handle certain Pokemon like Latios, Blissey, and Tyranitar well. In addition, it has the weakness to Stealth Rock, which limits the amount of times it can switch into battle (of course if SR is up). However, it has its own recovery move in Roost, has a good defensive typing, has two good abilities in Pressure and Lightningrod, and has moves that can hit many Pokemon super-effectively, or at least for neutral damage. So, this could go either way. Zapdos never disappoints me in Standard, I use it from time to time, it's definitely not too weak for Standard. Plenty of other people use Zapdos too so I don't see a reason for it to move down.

Tentacruel - it isn't a horrible Pokemon or anything, but it doesn't seem like the type of Pokemon that strikes fear into an opponent. Sure, it is a good user of Rapid Spin, and can be a good defensive Pokemon, especially in Rain. However, Tentcruel can't take physical hits too well, and it lacks the offenses to really be an offensive threat. It does get some good things though, like Rain Dish, Scald, and a decent-enough type combination in Water / Poison. An interesting point here is that there is no everlasting Rain in the creative tier, so Tentacruel arguably won't be as effective in creative than in standard, simply because rain dish wouldn't be a viable option. It doesn't strike fear into their hearts because it's not offensive and it's not chansey. Holy Spirit had a Tentacruel on his team last I faced him/er and he was ranked both 1 and 11. Face Holy Spirit and fear will be struck into your heart.

How often do you play Pokemon these days?

What do you all think will happen in these 6th Gen tiers?  Here are some of my thoughts:

1.  I think that we should allow a ability / weather combos, since weather only lasts 5 turns now.  Sure, these abilities can be annoying, but they aren't nearly as broken or as powerful as they once were.

2.  I think that the only new Ubers this generation are going to be Xerneas, Yveltal, and some of the Mega Evolutions.  I don't see Zygarde as being an 'Uber' Pokémon right now, as its slower than a lot of Dragons, and its stats aren't that overwhelming.

As you can tell by looking at the tiers list, we have everything that isn't a version mascot or Mewtwo allowed. Everything else will be voted to Ubers if need be. We won't be having votes until we can properly simulate our tier though.

If I had to guess, I think that the following Mega Evolutions could become Uber:

Mega Alakazam: Base 175 special attack and base 150 speed...enough said.  It does lose Magic Guard though, and it is still frail even when Mega-evolved

Mega Gengar: Like Mega Alakazam, it has very high special attack and speed.  It also has Shadow Tag, which can be scary to face.

Mega Mewtwo X/Y: Well...it seems obvious.  Mewtwo is already Uber in the first place, so Mewtwo X/Y would probably be Uber as well.  Mewtwo X has base 190 attack an Mewtwo Y has 194 base special attack, and those are very high attacking stats.  Those attacking stats are even higher than Deoxys Attack Forme to put those in perspective.  Combine those attacking stats with above-average defenses and great speed, and one can see why these should not be allowed in regular play.

Mega Heracross: Speaking of high attack, Mega Heracross has the second-highest attack, only behind Mewtwo X.  It also gets Skill Link, and it gets the moves Bullet Seed, Arm Thrust, and Pin Missile to go along with that ability.  Pin Missile is basically a more accurate, more powerful version of Megahorn with Skill Link, so Mega Heracross is something that you definitely should watch out for.

Mega Tyranitar: It has very high attack, and very high defenses coupled with Sand Stream (base 150 defense and base 120 special defense).  After one Dragon Dance, the only thing stopping Mega Tyranitar may be its relatively low speed.

Mega Mawile: It can have a maximum of 678 attack because of Huge Power, which is really quite ridiculous.  To put that in perspective, Mewtwo X can have 526 attack.  Also, Mawile has a fairly good typing, and good moves as well.

Mega Medicham: It has slightly less attacking power than Mega Mawile (which is still a lot), and it has base 100 speed, which can outspeed quite a bit of Pokémon still.

The other mega-evolutions I think either are not quite powerful enough to be Uber, or have some major flaw that prevents them from being Uber.

Mega-Kanga, which attacks twice per turn

diogofrp wrote:

Mega-Kanga, which attacks twice per turn

Mega Kangaskhan doesn't have the raw power of some of the other mega-evolutions though.  Its ability, Parental Bond, enables Kangaskhan to hit twice, but the second hit is only half power.  The ability itself is interesting though, it allows Kangaskhan to double its attack power by using Power Up Punch, it allows Kangashkan to have a 51% chance of flinching opponents with Rock Slide or Bite (not factoring in Rock Slide's accuracy, and I'm not sure if that probability is calculated correctly), it allows Kangaskhan to halve opponents' speeds with Bulldoze (or Icy Wind or Rock Tomb), and it allows Kangaskhan to have a 36% chance of confusing opponents with Dizzy Punch (again, I'm not entirely sure of this math).  

I'm not sure if Mega Kanga will become Uber, as its stats are decidedly average except attack (it doesn't have one stat below 100 though except for special attack, so there is that).  Its ability certainly is intriguing though.

Power-Up Punch isn't learned by Kanga according to Psim's /learn command, but according to bulbapedia it is, so idk how it is after all...

But for example, 2x Fake Out,2x Outrage, 2x Return, 2x Circle Throw(If this sends the opponent out in each hit, you hit 2 different Pokémon in the same turn) are interesting cases to see, since Fake Out has STAB and so does Return, while Outrage is a very strong attack.

I saw Power Up Punch on Serebii, and Serebii knows everything...

But anyway, Mega Kangaskhan could be a good stall Pokémon if Circle Throw works the way that you said it does, especially if you have a lot of hazards up. Also, it could make a good anti-lead, since its attacks would always break Focus Sashes and Sturdy Pokémon.

Also, I think that Mega Charizard Y will receive quite a bit of usage, since its Fire attacks are insanely powerful, and because it gets Drought + Solarbeam.

I'm gonna try Mega-Kanga's Circle Throw and see where it leads.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/breakdown-gen5customgame-18

seems like nope :p

He does the attack twice before actually doing the effect ^^

might want to test that in game before choosing a definitive answer, btw I updated, so Kanga's move pool isn't stupid anymore.

Well, I can't test that xD

Prankster + Swagger should probably be banned considering how OP/haxy it is.
Proof: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/breakdown-breakdownstandard-91 and http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-60582889

I don't agree with you MKSlayer on this topic. The Prankster + Swagger strategy only has a 50% chance of success on the turn that it is used (so its not the most reliable strategy), and even then, you can always switch the confused Pokémon out of battle if that is necessary. I mean, we have Togekiss with Air slash, Serene Grace, and Thunder Wave, and we haven't banned that. Also, I feel that if this was indeed overpowered, then we would have banned it already, since this was around last generation as well.

Along with the Swagger, also include Thunder Wave and that's a 62.5% chance of not hitting. Afterwards, you use Substitute to wait until the 62.5% chance and then you have a free hit where you use Foul Play to do damage boosted by the Swagger. It wasn't as viable last generation as it is now because Thundurus is back in Standard, Steel doesn't resist Dark, and we now have a Pokemon with the best defensive typing in the game that has access to it whose bulk isn't as bad as the Pokemon that were previously capable of using it, so even if the first 50% confusion chance doesn't work, it'll survive to take another chance.

You are right, this can be an effective strategy.  Some decent Pokémon can pull off this strategy, those Pokémon include Thundurus, Murkrow, Sableye, Liepard, Klefki, and Mega Banette (might have to get a Klefki in my game soon...).

However, I don't think that this is a strategy that needs to be banned.  I think that its a risk / reward strategy myself.  You only have a 45% result of actually achieving what you want to achieve after you use Swagger the first time.  (I mean actually hitting the opponent, then having the opponent hit itself in its confusion)  You also run the 45% risk that your opponent will hit you back after the first Swagger use, possibly for major damage because of the boosted attack.  Of course, you can increase the odds in your favor by using Thunder Wave and Substitute.  While I agree that this strategy can be effective, I just don't think that its a strategy that needs to be banned.  If we allow Togekiss, which can achieve an 70% non-hit rate from opposing Pokémon (via Thunder Wave and Air Slash), then I feel that we should allow this.

Oh yeah, we're naming this strategy the "I've got Swag" strategy.

steel dragons wrote:

you can always switch the confused Pokémon out of battle if that is necessary

I'm not in this particular discussion, but I have something to say about this.

If you switch the confused pokémon, your opponent gets a free turn, possibly for Sub. Assuming the confusion worked in the first turn, and now my opponent is going to switch out, i'll sub in the 2nd turn. And whatever Pokémon comes out, it'll get hit with T-Wave or Swagger, and will have only a chance of breaking sub, not even a chance of actually dealing damage.

Diogo, congratulations on delivering a good argument, seriously, I'm proud.

I would like to split the vote here into a third option: Ban Klefki.

Thundurus has better strategies to be using then this one, and that might make it Ubers again on its own merits. It doesn't have the defensive typing or natural bulk to do this as well as Klefki.

Mega-Nette seems to be a waste of a Mega slot, and even if you are using it, I don't see you wasting your time using Foul Play when you could be having fun doing something else, not quite sure yet.

Liepard was silly in Gen 5 and it's still silly now. Liepard is far too frail to use this effectively, and its typing gives it less opportunity to set up than Klefki.

Murkrow and Sableye I don't feel are worth discussing, Sableye doesn't have Thunder Wave while Murkrow is not very good.

Which leaves us with basically Klefki. It is a powerful wall, with Fairy/Steel being one of the best defensive types in the game. It has great innate bulk, allowing it to take a hit to the face and try again. Honestly, I don't see the point of banning the whole strategy when we can just ban the one Pokemon that makes it broken.

Can't we instead ban that combination on klefki?