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 June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread

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PostSubject: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:54 pm

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of May 2014. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:25 pm

The two most important things that need to be moved are probably Mawilite (Currently in Creative) and Pinsirite (Not listed, but Pinsir is in Inspired). Other Mega Stones that we might want to move up include Medichamite (Not listed, but Medicham is in Inspired) and Gardevoirite (Not listed, but Gardevoir is in Creative).
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:32 pm

We can actually ban Mega Stones specifically from any tier, since they aren't technically Pokemon. I don't know if we should make it so we can't, since mega stones are going to continue to be a thing if the new Gen 3 remake leaks are any evidence.

[10:34:43] @MKSLAYER97: Yeah, banning the Mega Stones specifically instead of the Pokemon from the tier is what I had in mind.
[10:35:39] ~Invalid: I know that, what I meant was, we could move pinsirite directly to standard instead of moving it to Inspired, then Creative, then Standard.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:04 pm

Pinsirite should definitely be put into Standard. It's unhealthy for the Inspired and Creative metagames to have Pinsirite in them, even briefly. I think we could think about tiering them the same way as Pokemon if or when we decide that we can nominate Pokemon to move more than one tier up in special cases. With ORAS coming, we don't really know where any megas should be until we see stats and movepool. For instance, maybe Mega Castform will have 110 in each stat, and that'll force Mega Castform to go to a much higher tier than where it is currently.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:16 am

Ok, the list of unlisted mega stones are currently the Abomasite, the Alakazite, the Banettite, the Blazikenite, the Garchompite, the Gardevoirite, the Gyaradosite, the Heracronite, the Medichamite, the Mewtwonite X and Y, the Pinsirite, the Scizorite, the Tyranitarite, and the Venasaurite. I'm going to put them all into their own special section for now; obviously if you think that they should be in a tier, then state your opinion here.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:31 am

ALL RIGHT GUYS LET'S TRUCKING TALK ABOUT BLAZIKEN.

I'm really against the idea of having a Pokemon+Ability banned. I know you guys have no problem with it but I'm probably voting against it, even though Blaze Blaziken is totally not Uber material. Yes, I know the ban is airtight, and yes, I know no one's making a case for Speed Boost Blazi of any kind. It's just some weird principle thing. I feel like if you're going to send something to Ubers you should probably just ban the whole thing rather than a specific ability that's broken, like Excadrill in Gen 5.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:58 pm

Immanency has a point. For example, you could also let Talonflame without Gale Wings or Nidoking without Sheer Force in the lower tiers, as they're definitely weaker without those abilities; but then bans would start getting way too specific.

Also someone help me fix the lower tiers (see my Tier Nominations post). You may not agree with everything, but there are some important nominations in my post.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:09 pm

We'll start to fix the lower tiers soon, once the clan season becomes more relevant than it is. :/

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:16 pm

To Immanency: We didn't ban Excadrill in Gen 5, so your example  is ill informed. We banned Sand Rush Excadrill, and by the end of Gen 5 we had Sand Rush Excadrill only banned on teams that had Sand Stream. So the appeal to nostalgia is entirely nostalgic in that it doesn't represent the actual past. Breakdown has always been the server willing to have Pokemon+Ability bans, and honestly if we're not, that's a huge dent in our individuality. To the point where I see less of a reason for us to even exist.

To Slowbrother, with the low tier complex bans: I've strayed away from favoring low tier complex bans because to me, it makes the lower tiers harder to understand. Also, I've always considered Ubers to be only a ban list and not a tier that needs to be balanced as seriously as other tiers, so making complex bans to that tier are acceptable to me. I can't say for sure what motivates other people not to want to make complex bans from lower tiers, as I am not a Psychic type. Oh, also I've always thought of Standard as the tier where I'd like absolutely everything that's viable that isn't broken to have a chance to be used.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:34 am

Invalid: What I'm saying is that I don't desire the banning of a Pokemon plus ability. I feel it adds too much complexity to the ban system. I explained my Excadrill example excpetionally poorly, so let me rephrase: Excadrill itself was not broken. It was Excadrill in combination with the Sand Rush ability which made it broken. The same in this case goes for Blaziken.

I had a long-winded sarcastic thing on why Palkia's only OP if it has any moves or EVs and so we should bring Palkia down to Standard with the catch that it has no moves or EVs. I then decided that being a sarcastic asshole in addition to being a stupid FUCKING asshole would not be beneficial to my case.

TL;DR: Immanency is a stupid fucking asshole

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:00 am

Fun fact: Blaziken + Speed Boost was a ban in place last Gen.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:42 pm

When is the actual voting going to go up?

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:33 pm

Venusaur's votes were changed in structure because Voting Venusaurite to Standard while not voting down Venusaur would result in absolutely no difference to the metagame.

In order to support Bisharp moving up to Creative, I would need a real reason why it is either too good for lower tiers, or good enough for Creative (or Standard if you please). I'm expecting at least someone to claim Sticky Web is a good enough reason, but it is not enough of a reason for it to move up if it relies on your opponent having a move which isn't even common in order to have a niche.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:44 am

Bisharp could possibly be the most buffed Pokemon of Gen VI. It seemed as if a lot of separate nerfs and changes all revolved around putting Bisharp in an advantageous position in the metagame. First, fairy types being weak to Steel allows Bisharp to hit one of the types that counters his type with incredibly powerful STAB Steel moves. Second, Knock Off got buffed a lot. Thirdly, Defog was changed so that it can clear hazards. Fourthly, Sticky Web happened. Finally, Steel type got nerfed and now Ghost and Dark are not resisted by Steel, though Bisharp still resists both. It's time for the Power Ranger to show Inspired who's boss.

The two major reasons why Bisharp should be in Creative are his ability, Defiant, and his movepool, which includes Knock Off(the big problem), Sucker Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Brick Break, and Psycho Cut.

In this generation, it is trivial to get a Defiant boost, and because Defiant boosts +2 attack, there is no way to make a Bisharp less powerful once it has already attained a boost, aside from giving it status effects. Bisharp can come in Sticky Web to a +2 attack, and because its speed stat really doesn't matter (especially in lower tiers) because of Sucker Punch. But that's not the best case scenario; the best case scenario is Bisharp coming in on a Defog, which will lower his Evasion but not his speed. It can then outspeed a lot of pokemon, because many pokemon need to run investments in Defense and HP to not get 1-shot by Sucker Punch and/or Knock Off.

Because most of the things that wall Bisharp in lower tiers are Eviolite users, and because of Bisharp's STAB Knock Off, it becomes again trivial to wreck a wall for something else to sweep. It's not just the buff to 65 BP; it's the additional 1.5x boost it gets when it actually removes an item. This allows Bisharp to dismantle its counters, because it delivers a move which is almost as powerful as a STAB Earthquake, while also taking away their item. Knock Off is the big problem with Bisharp and why he's good in the first place.

Don't count out a pairing of Bisharp + one other sweeper, such as Slurpuff, Gallade, and Yanmega in Inspired, and Hydreigon, Kyurem, Staraptor, Honchkrow, or Don't Hug Me; if anything, this, the ability to pair well and clear the field for other sweepers, is its most bannable characteristic. It forces in strong physical walls because basically nothing else can handle a Knock Off of the level Bisharp's throwing out.

There's not a lot that gets Mach Punch in Inspired anyway, but we'll think about the ones that do have it.

Hitmonchan:
Hitmonchan Calcs and Explanations:
 

(I was originally going to include Eviolite Monferno but then I ran calcs and realized it was total Nas.)

There are some potential checks/counters to Bisharp that don't have access to Mach Punch; most of them rely on using a quick Will-O-Wisp or a Justified Boost to KO bisharp before it gets the chance to hit them:

Blastoise:
Blastoise Calcs and Explanations:
 

Virizion:
Virizion Calcs and Explanations:
 

Moltres:
Moltres Calcs and Explatations:
 

Entei:
Entei Calcs and Explanations:
 

The promised land has arrived for Bisharp. Its powerful Attack, decent speed, and "good enough" movepool give Bisharp the tools it needs to dismantle its competition. Bisharp is an extremely relevant threat in Standard play, and in Inspired it simply wrecks face. Despite being a Bishop, Bisharp will quickly ascend to King if he is kept in Inspired.

Creative Checks for Bisharp:
 

I'm happy to discuss more with you and anyone on Skype and on the server. Answering questions and whatnot. It's really late and I've gotta sleep. Night.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:23 pm

Immanency wrote:
Fourthly, Sticky Web happened.

The two major reasons why Bisharp should be in Creative are his ability, Defiant, and his movepool, which includes Knock Off(the big problem), Sucker Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Brick Break, and Psycho Cut.

I'm specifically quoting the parts I want to respond to. Sticky Web is nothing in Inspired. There's Smeargle, which accounts for Sticky Web being on less than .5% of teams (PO LU being the most accurate statistics available, and since we don't have an active Inspired community, I'm going with that), and then there's only Masquerain and Ariados. So for Inspired Sticky Web is not even relevant. It's a very sweet move, but it's just not something you can count on seeing.

The set listed in this Post has 6 moves, and when we're talking about something being broken in a tier, a 6 move Pokemon is something that can't be considered since it doesn't exist. Trace and I talked to Immanency, and he indicated this as the set he considers broken in Inspired:

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Psycho Cut

So, I guess the best thing to do would be list checks and counters to that set.

Counters: (Bisharp with Brick Break), Pangoro, Scrafty, Steelix, Aggron, Smeargle (sash, no rocks, else check), Golem, Regirock, Hawlucha.

Checks: Whimsicott, Virizion, Houndoom, Absol, Hitmonchan, Scarf Machoke

There are more, but I feel like this is enough to show that the set he provided is not broken in Inspired, and I don't feel like theorymonning all day.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:09 pm

I have no idea why immanency said Psycho Cut, considering Iron Head is much better on Bisharp, which would definitely take Golem and Regirock off of the counter list.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 331-391 (122.1 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 273-322 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Absol is not a Bisharp check.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 321-380 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 446-526 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


So those 2 are both off of the counter list with Iron Head.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 263-309 (76.4 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aggron Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 214-252 (78.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Aggron would have to sacrifice itself to kill Bisharp.

So the current list of checks/counters are: Bisharp with Brick Break (Having something as its own counter kind of defeats the purpose, though), Steelix, Smeargle without rocks, and Hawlucha as counters, and Whimsicott, Virizion, and Hitmonchan as checks.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:41 pm

New set, indicated:
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Checks: Virizion, Houndoom, Absol, Hitmonchan, Scarf Machoke, Scarf Scrafty/Pangoro, Hawlucha, (HP fighting) Magneton(this is the truest actual check).
Counters: (Bisharp with Brick Break), Registeel, Steelix, Aggron, Smeargle (sash, no rocks, else check), Emboar, (technician)Hitmontop.

The thing that sucks about dealing with Bisharp is that one of the checks and counters are the kind that just don't care about anything Bisharp does to it. A good counter is something like Gliscor to Terrakion.

You guys are all assuming that the Bisharp is getting +2, without context, which needs to be explained a little better. When you just say it like this, you're making it seem like 1. it needs the +2 boost to be the threat it is, and 2. It will always get the +2 boost. The thing that is a problem about it is that it can get it easily, like Genesect could get a Rock Polish, and after that point, if you didn't have a super hard counter, (Blissey, Chansey, Snorlax, or Rotom-H) the match would be over. That's how it is with Bisharp, it's too big of a risk to play with, there are too many ways for it to set up, and if it does, there is nothing in Inspired that counters Bisharp as hard as those things counter Genesect, and Genesect was banned. There's just no way to prevent it from ripping the Truck out of your team once it's out. I hate to make the other side's argument for them, but this was going nowhere.

I'm not sure what there is in Creative yet to hard counter it, but an offensive monster like Bisharp needs hard counters, and if there are none Inspired will suck. When I enter an argument, even if I change my mind the first thing I try to do is push the other side to argue what I'm thinking. But I didn't do that properly here. So instead of continuing down that route, I'm leaving this here.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:02 pm

I figured the idea was to send Bisharp in against something that can't really hurt it (There's enough out there that this isn't hard to do) and immediately SD, on the turn that the counters would be switching in, meaning that it would get +2 against its counters. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to build a team that has nothing that lets Bisharp set up.

Magneton as a check, assuming 252 HP and Eviolite: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 308-363 (101.3 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If it's Choice Scarf with no HP: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 378-446 (156.8 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not even going to dignify Scarf Scrafty/Machoke/Pangoro with responses.

I already explained why Absol isn't a check.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:00 am

The Absol I was talking about was a very specific, completely stupid set, but it was a revenge killer.
Absol @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 124 SAtk / 132 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Night Slash
- Psycho Cut
- Sucker Punch

Also, Scarf Machoke is the only one of the scarf crew that is unlikely, Pangoro is expected to have a scarf, and Scrafty can Moxie abuse with a Scarf.

The Magneton set is another incredibly counter specific set no one would actually run:
Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute

+2 knock off does not hit Magneton before Magneton gets to attack. Also, I'd like to conclude with Butch from Team Rocket Nas Truck Homosexual.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:09 pm

If we're going to throw out the Smeargle with Sticky Web set because it's "irrelevant," I move we look up usage on all of Bisharp's counters and throw out the ones that are "irrelevant."

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PostSubject: Re: June 2014 Tier Discussion Thread   Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:34 am

It's not something you can expect to see often, if you're going to put "irrelevant" in quotes, I'll tell your what was meant by it. Sticky Web Smeargle was on what? .4% of teams? so every counter or check that is above that percentage is more "relevant", or likely be be encountered than Smeargle.

Also, I know you're probably seeing it as a double standard, but I can explain why the irrelevant thing is not as applicable to to things that power you up as it is to counters. Lets start with more asinine examples to simplify it.

The broken Pokemon is Lickitung. The counter, Eviolite Haunter, is something you can actually use against it if you have a weakness to it on your team. The thing that powers it up, The move swagger, is something that it has to hope is on your team in order to be boosted. Relying on an opponent to have a Pokemon in order to power up your Pokemon is not a safe strategy. Bringing a Pokemon to counter something is a safe strategy, and it's something you can guarantee, instead of just hoping it will happen. If you have Eviolite Haunter, you just plain don't have to worry about Lickitung, that's something you're setting in stone.

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