Breakdown CANG Discussion

Since this project is going to be so much bigger than CAP, it will be impossible to organize the information properly on the forums. We will be using this Wiki: http://breakdowncang.wikia.com/wiki/Breakdown_CANG_Wiki

Over the next few days we'll be moving CAP charts over to the site and organizing it as best we can before going public. If anyone wants to help, feel free to create pages, but make sure to use Bizzarnival as a template, it has everything set up already. http://breakdowncang.wikia.com/wiki/Bizzarnival_(Pokemon)

Also, Steel, I'm not making pages for your CAPs not because I dislike them, but because I figure you want to help, and I figured if you wanted to help, you'd like to work on your own pokes' pages.

Invalid, I'd love to help with CANG, but I'm not sure how to upload the Pokemon gifs.

Could you either upload them to CANG or leave a tutorial on how to do that?

Adding a video which also demonstrates the entire process. Also, it shows how to do it in as little as 14 minutes (rounded up).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r2NYJQ1cpM You might want to turn the quality up to be able to read things, even at 720p I can only imagine it's like not wearing your prescription lenses and trying to read.

So we've decided that absolutely everything from Gen Next is being implemented. We are however changing Gravitation and Distortion to 5 move abilities to match other weather, but they're getting weather rocks, that's nice right? Also, we want to make stick give Farfetch'd moody's effect without the accuracy or evasion, so prepare for farfetch'd fun (say that three times fast).

Feel Free to post your ridiculous ideas, we're up.

Alright, never mind what this used to say.

Trace said Rapid Punch is priority, but it doesn't say anything about priority in the post. If it is Priority then it's probably the strongest priority move in the game, but it's also on Hitmonchan, so I'm all for it. If it's not priority, then it just plain sucks, after iron fist, it has 30 bp (per hit) and 90 accuracy. When I first saw this, I considered that completely outclassed by Double Kick, but since then I've realized Double Kick doesn't hit 2-5 times, it just hits 2 times. So if it's not priority, it isn't outclassed by Double Kick, but it's not really that good, it averages at 90 base power, and maxes out at 150 base power, can miss 10% of the time. My judgement call is that this move, without priority is not good enough to make Hitmonchan viable. If it's priority, then scratch everything I said and I'll upvote it.

A few words about the Wiki: (I just guessed this should be put here)

I wonder if we can make charts to contain the moves (and list the power, accuracy, etc if possible) in a similar fashion to teambuilder on SD to prevent the moves list becoming a wall of text on the Pokemon pages.
By the way, the category pages didn't list all things that should be under them. Will that be fixed?

DS.

To the first part, that will require a bit more wiki knowledge than we have, but someone who knows how to make wiki macros could do it, and their help would be greatly appreciated. To the second part, yes, we will be getting the category pages in order, we weren't using them for anything until yesterday and just started on them yesterday.

DaShrink wrote:

Suggesting buff to Thick Fat:
A further halved damage from Fighting-type attacks than halved damage from Fire- and Ice-type attacks. (Y'know you just don't beat up a fat guy easily)

Thick Fat is already really good. This will be reducing Snorlax to having no weaknesses and removing another weakness from Mamoswine. I'm highly opposed to this change.

I kind of support the Thick Fat change. Snorlax and Grumpig are both not very good, and having a more diverse metagame isn't something I oppose. My main concern is Mamoswine, but it is usually ran sashed and thus would probably still be 2HKO'd by all the same Fighting type moves.

I'd have to oppose this on the mere basis of Mamo to be honest. It's already really good and annoying as shit, so I don't want its life to be any easier. While I wouldn't mind some love for Snorlax, that is completely outweighed by my fear of this fucker.

I've actually reconsidered my opinion of the current iteration of this ability on the basis that Snorlax will be a broken curse user.

On Lilligant:
I voted it up, I like it. I just wanted to say fire/grass coverage has been more than explored. It hasn't just been on Venusaur, it's seen good use on Celebi, Shaymin, Victreebel, Heatran (in gen 4), and even Lilligant. Now that Hidden Power and Dought have been nerfed though, it will probaby only be useful on Venusaur. This will bring Lilligant from meh to scary, and I'm more than happy to have Lilligant be scary. Not only will it have great STAB coverage, but it will be immune to Leech Seed, Spore moves, and burn, adding to the list of things it can set up on in CANG. If Lilligant somehow ends up being broken, my guess would be that it was due to Fiery Dance, but I think it's better to start off with the chance to over shoot it a little, then fix it if there's a problem, than undershoot it, and have to keep buffing the same Pokemon.

I think what will make Lilligant balanced is 4mss. She should definitely run Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder, Petal Dance, Fiery Dance, HP Rock... crap that's 5... uh she should run Quiver Dance + 3 coverage, crap how does she set up... she runs sleep powder... she uh...

Lilligant can't hit all of the threats it wants to, even with STAB Fiery Dance. If it can, it will either have no setup move or be difficult for it to set up. Lilligant will always be vulnerable to Twave.

Lilligant will still be scary, true. But I definitely don't think she'll be CANG Ubers.

On the Monkeys, as I said in chat, I really think they should be given base 103 speed. They can outspeed Garchomp with that tier, which would give them (Simipour especially) a cool niche.

Sorry for double post, but I read about that Curse change that was suggested and I'm not sure if I like that. It feels like half of your hp is a decent price to pay for intense residual damage on someone else, and while I agree it needs a slight buff, I think something other than taking no damage on the turn Curse is used would be better. How about if it prevented any sort of recovery on the cursed Pokemon? That way, Curse would be an extremely good stallbreaking tactic for Pokemon like Gengar to break through strong walls like Chansey or Blissey. A set like Sub/Curse/ShadowBall/SludgeWave @ Black Sludge could be a really strong wallbreaker.

So I just realized Sturdy Shedinja could be balanced. Think of Alakazam, it's immune to residual damage, but incredibly weak to battle damage. Sturdy Shedinja would be immune to (almost all) battle damage, but any residual damage would one shot it. Shedinja is also nowhere near the threat Alakazam is. So basically, if we give Sturdy to Shedinja, I think it will be low Standard. And for anyone freaking out calling me an idiot. Sturdinja is broken in hackmons mainly due to being able to learn any move, real shedinja doesn't even get Recycle.

Ways Sturdy Shedinja can die (Assume Lum Berry):
Mold Breaker
Rocky Helmet
Iron Barbs
Rough Skin
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Sandstorm
Hail
Trick + Toxic Orb/Flame Orb/Sticky Barb
Leech Seed
Spiky Shield
A very lucky Tri Attack from a Pokemon with Aerialate, Pixilate, or Refrigerate
Any two of the following, or 1 with Unnerve:
Switches to T Spikes
Scald Burn
Darkrai Dark Void (unnerve would not benefit this)
Toxic
Will-o-wisp

Something to consider.

You also forgot moves like Fire Spin which give residual damage every turn, and all of the multi-hit moves like Rock Blast. Also, no Pokémon with Aerialate, Pixilate, and Refrgerate get Tri Attack.

Anyway, I would still be opposed to Sturdy Shedinja. It's still immune to any normal attack, which is still a pretty major thing. If it's brought in late game, then it could really do some damage, as most normal sweepers probably couldn't KO Shedinja, because most of their moves are probably just normal 'attacking' moves. Also, Sandstorm / Hail is less popular than it was before due to the weather nerf, and Defog now gets rid of the hazards that would KO Shedinja.

They all get Nature Power, which becomes Tri Attack. Also, multi-hit moves like Rock Blast will not kill Sturdy Shedinja. You are right about partial trapping move though (moves like Fire Spin).

"most normal sweepers probably couldn't KO Shedinja, because most of their moves are probably just normal 'attacking' moves." Yeah that's the point, if every kind of Pokemon could kill shedinja easily, what would be the point of using it?

The fact that Sturdy Shendinja has easily used hard counters should automatically make it not broken if this was an honest tier discussion. Shedinja's diverse counter list includes Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Haxorus, Tyranitar, Abomasnow, and anything that generally uses one of the things on the previous list. And as for the fact that you'd have to use a status move on it twice, which no one has mentioned, I just thought I'd bring up, it's a direct parallel to running Focus Sash on Alakazam.

Sash Alakazam - Something immune to residual damage, being allowed to survive one damaging moves.
Lum Sturdy Shedinja - Something immune to damaging moves, being allowed to survive one status effects.

Basically the only way Sturdy Shedinja could be balanced is if Stealth Rocks killed it. Otherwise it's like Deoxys-N, shitting all over hyper offense teams while not being too difficult for more balanced teams. If Stealth Rocks/Spikes kills it, I'd be willing to vote affirmatively on Sturdy Shedinja.

[04:35:08] immanency: I'll definitely support that then
[04:35:11] immanency: If rocks kill it

Btw that was in my original post, but it was long so I understand skimming.

Alright, just so you know, there's this hip cool trendy fucking fabulous thing Immanency suggested.

Forecast buff: Add 3 turns to weather moves AND MAKE WEATHER MOVES LAUNCH WEATHER BALL.

Well guess what. I fucking did it, it's coded and implemented. I could die. This opens up doors, there are so many things I can do now. CANG is back baby. I'll be coding, see ya.

It will be added to the wiki and kept as long as Frost and Trace agree to it, otherwise, we're going to have to vote it in.

Invalid is a god.

Newest thing: Gale Wings Pidgeot.

Reasons: A great support movepool, priority Roost on something that isn't frail could be cool but also easy to play around because he's Normal type. Really the reason, though, is Mirror Move. PRIORITY Mirror Move. I think a Toxic/Roost/Mirror Move/Whatever set would be an amazingly fun set to work with.