August Voting Discussion

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of August 2013. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

Wow...not much discussion this voting round.

Anyway, do you all think that Apollyon should be in CAP Ubers? Sure, it can be a big threat after a Shell Smash boost, but it still has to get the boost first. Yes, it will have opportunities to boost, but it is a Ice Pokémon with 90 / 75 / 75 defenses, hardly the thing that can easily set up.

Also, I think that the deadline should be extended, since only a few of us have voted.

Deadline extended 3 days. Also nommed Volcarona and Scizor because you don't get a chance like that every day.

Uh... I think I'm going to let someone else really start the Scizor/Volc debate, I'm just going to briefly state my general opinions.

Volcarona I could care less either way, since the only thing keeping it in Standard now is Stealth Rock, and that's kinda horse shit.

Scizor... I feel like banning it would completely Nas end the metagame, and I have no idea what will happen. XD So I'd have to say no.

I'm not gonna touch Scizor or Volc. I hate them both, but that's too controversial for me lol.

And I know this is a bad reason, but I honestly think no one would come here anymore if we banned both of them XD

I don't see how Volcarona or Scizor are Uber material. Scizor can be easily stopped; you just have to predict around it, since its banded most of the time. Volcarona also isn't the hardest thing to stop either, just launch floating rocks or strong physical attacks at it, and you've pretty much stopped it.

Also:

Steel Dragons wrote:

Anyway, do you all think that Apollyon should be in CAP Ubers? Sure, it can be a big threat after a Shell Smash boost, but it still has to get the boost first. Yes, it will have opportunities to boost, but it is a Ice Pokémon with 90 / 75 / 75 defenses, hardly the thing that can easily set up.

Volc I could see passing for Ubers. Scizor is just obnoxious. I have to disagree when you say it's easy to stop, because it's annoying. I think Scizor is a cardboard cut out easy button broken nuisance. I do not, however, see it as uber material.

Volc is another story. In my experience it's either incredibly easy or incredibly difficult to shut down. I don't think it's quite as easy as you make it out to be, that's for sure. However, I also don't necessarily know if it's uber either. I think it could be, but I don't think I'm going to vote it up.

I don't think Scizor's unstoppable or uncounterable, I just think it's bullshit, or to be smogon'y it's "overcentralizing." It's basically the definition of overcentralizing, anything with usage that isn't determined by stealth rock is determined by Scizor. Hell, it's the metagame's designated check to pretty much EVERY set up sweeper, even things it isn't a check to, like Kyurem-B formerly.

Steel, unless those "strong physical attacks" are Rock or Ground type, you're 1: Not killing Volcarona and 2: getting burnt for your trouble.

Sets like Rain Hurricane and ChestoResto Volcarona are nigh on impossible to stop without rocks up, and a simple Quiver/M.Sun/Fiery Dance/Bug Buzz set basically negates SR damage if you keep the weather advantage, though SDef Heatran fucks you now.

Scizor is controversial because it is "centralizing", the whole metagame basically has two checks for viability. The first, are you weak to rocks? The seconds, are you weak to Steel and/or defensively frail? Scizor defines what the game is all by itself, and for most Pokemon, that makes an Uber, but the problem is that shit that only Scizor reliably deals with, like Gengar, Terrakion, Salamence, the Lati twins, ect. get a field day without him. If you ban Scizor, you're banning one of the most powerful pokemon in the game, but you're also opening up for 10 or 12 more pokemon to get banned next. Maybe that'd be for the best, but I don't know if we should go that route two months before XY comes out.

As for Apollyon, I don't care. I'd personally rather not deal with it, I haven't decided which way I'm voting yet.

Appolyon is stupid and the only reason I didn't put it directly into cap uber is because Kingtrace's conscience. Not even my own. I don't see a reason for the impending end of gen 5 to hinder us btw. Think how many people would be rich now if they hadn't spent their "final days" doing unproductive things before all the world's recent doomsday predictions.

I dunno. I feel like if Scizor went uber people just wouldn't stay on the server. It's one of the most common things on people's teams. From a practical standpoint, banning it is a terrible idea.

Don't get me wrong, I know that's a bad reason to decide on voting. However, that doesn't change a very realconsequence. It's just too "centralized" this generation to get rid of. Everyone is used to it being there. So I have to agree with Kingtrace here, banning it is a reckless move for multiple reasons.

Me and Steel tried out Apollyon in a few CAP battles but it never seemed to do its job for either of us as pretty much everything would ko it while it was getting up a shell smash. So i see no real reason to ban it but i see no real reason to keep it... its totally useless to any team and really has no function what so ever.

As for Scizor and Volcarona i don't think they should be banned because they both have a common counter which is keeping them OU really. Heatran. I mean think about it.... why do you run Heatran on just about every team? To counter Volcarona an Scizor. Also Scizor defines the metagame way to much. Its something every team prepares for and has a check and or counter for. Because of this over preparation to face it i think banning it would just mess with peoples heads way too much.

Also i'd like to start the Jirachi discussion and why its Ubers really .-. i mean sure iron head is annoying but that doesn't mean its impossible to stop. Lots of things in OU nowadays can take an iron head from jirachi. Ferro, Jellicent combo can easily shut Jirachi down of ANY kind. Heatran itself destroy rachi, Skarm? hello. I mean jirachi does have good uses other than HAX. It can be a very reliable wish passer with U-turn and a great Calm Mind user.

We're just opening all sorts of cans of worms, aren't we?

For Scizor: Like others have said, Scizor is a powerful Pokémon in it own right. However, I don't think that Scizor should move up to Ubers. I think this because:

1. You know what you're getting out of Scizor 99.9% of the time, so you can know how to counter it in some way.
2. It is one of the most common Pokémon in the game, and it might be in poor taste to ban it.

For Volcarona: I don't think that it should be uber simply because of all those floating rocks in the metagame right now. It really is a shame; without Stealth Rock Volcarona would be a great Pokémon.

To address some other peoples' comments:

Invalid wrote:

Appolyon is stupid and the only reason I didn't put it directly into cap uber is because Kingtrace's conscience. Not even my own

Why is it stupid though? I've done some battles with it, and I have found it hard to really do much with Apollyon. Its a frail Ice Pokémon, and many, many Pokémon can hit it hard enough to do severe damage. Do you want to ban Apollyon because it is broken, or because you just don't like it?

Kingtrace wrote:

Steel, unless those "strong physical attacks" are Rock or Ground type, you're 1: Not killing Volcarona and 2: getting burnt for your trouble

(but ground is neutral...)
I meant what I said earlier as a generalization, not as a foregone conclusion. Volcarona does have that base 65 defense though, so it will have a hard time surviving some strong physical attacks.

Supahgassy wrote:

Me and Steel tried out Apollyon in a few CAP battles but it never seemed to do its job for either of us as pretty much everything would ko it while it was getting up a shell smash. So i see no real reason to ban it but i see no real reason to keep it... its totally useless to any team and really has no function what so ever.

I wouldn't say that its totally useless; if it gets up a Shell Smash boost, it can be great. In the battles that I used Apollyon for though, I didn't find much success at all with it. Its a frail Ice type with medicore offenses and speed, so it was hard to get that one boost.

SupahGassy wrote:

Also i'd like to start the Jirachi discussion and why its Ubers really .-. i mean sure iron head is annoying but that doesn't mean its impossible to stop. Lots of things in OU nowadays can take an iron head from jirachi. Ferro, Jellicent combo can easily shut Jirachi down of ANY kind. Heatran itself destroy rachi, Skarm? hello. I mean jirachi does have good uses other than HAX. It can be a very reliable wish passer with U-turn and a great Calm Mind user.

Alright, I'll go over this again, special for you, Gassy.

Firstly, I've had a Heatran die to Jirachi flinching it 21 times in a row, so that by itself is a problem.

Secondly, thank you for making my point for me. It IS a great Calm Mind user. One of the best, actually. In fact, THAT'S the set that made it Uber here in the first place.

Calm Mind/Water Pulse/Thunder/Substitute RainRachi is simply nigh on impossible to stop. Physical Gastrodon and Water Absorb Quagsire are the only hopes to stop it, anything else is going to get Para'd by Thunder and turned into setup fodder or straight KO'd by Water Pulse.

Chansey can't stop it because of 101 HP Subs, Heatran can't stop it because of Thunder and the fact it's raining, LolSkarm, Ferro can't seed it, the set is simply unstoppable without sending a mon or two to the grave.

Invalid wrote:

Breakdown (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunder
- Water Pulse

........ The Challenge is to name 3 counters or checks to this Pokemon, I'll spoil it for you, there are only 2 Counters and 0 Checks, Water Absorb Quagsire and Physical Gastrodon. Any other check or counter will have to deal with either the 40% chance to be confused, the 60% chance to be paralyzed or both. As an Uber Pokemon, this Jirachi is expected to be on a rain team and have Stealth Rock support. This rules out Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippowdown, Abomasnow, and Garchomp as checks even without the chance to be haxed since when they force jirachi out, Jirachi only loses 12% health after leftovers recovery while they lost a minimum of 30% each. Anything else someone intends to break a sub with can't survive Jirachi's hits even that well, and anything that lives them better (Ferrothorn, Latias, and other grass types) are set up fodder for Jirachi since they are unable to break it's Substitute.
........ The final thing notable to address is the combination of Ninetales and Venusaur, this comes from Havinfun. Here's what is likely to happen is you try to use Ninetales and Venusaur together to put Venusaur in a position to sweep an entire team while Jirachi is out. Turn X, Jirachi is out against whatever (say ferrothorn). Jirachi sets up a Substitute while Ferrothorn switches into Ninetales, Ninetales takes 25% from Stealth Rock. Turn X+1, Jirachi safely uses Water Pulse from behind a Substitute while Venusaur comes in, Venusaur takes 12.5% from Stealth Rocks. Turn X+2 Jirachi switches to Politoed, Venusaur must either predict Politoed, switch out, or use HP fire and do little damage. Until now this also ignored the possibility that Venusaur would get confused on the switch and be forced out. Conclusion Ninetales and Venusaur do not counter Politoed and Jirachi.

And if you don't feel like reading it yourself, here's a video of me reading it starting at 1m34s: https://youtu.be/MkRu5M_pZr0?t=1m34s

Hey guys, are we going to vote? I'm the only person who has voted, and there are less than two days left until the deadline (unless it gets extended, of course)

Also, I don't think that Apollyon should be an uber. I've used it in a few battles, and it was underwhelming for me. Sure, if it gets the Shell Smash boost, then it has the potential to be good. However, Apollyon is also a frail Ice Pokémon with few resistances, and it can be hard for it to get the boost it needs. Even if it gets the boost, it still is vulnerable to two common priority attacks, Bullet Punch and Mach Punch.
If any of you really think that Apollyon is an uber, then I would like to know why, since I really don't think that Apollyon is uber material.

Alright with Appolyon, here's the gist of why I think Appolyon should be a CAP Uber. Most Shell Smash users can get a shell smash up, even Omastar is capable of getting one up. I'm considering it a foregone conclusion that in some cases, played well, Appolyon will be able to set up. Once set up, Appolyon has the highest speed of any Shell Smash user and mixed offenses that should be able to take down just about any wall you throw at it. Appolyon will be taken out by priority, but I don't like the idea of a Pokemon that can only be taken out by priority, and that's what this is, especially with the 100 Speed that prevents anything but scarfed Deoxys-S from revenging it without priority.

If anyone is wondering about my vote, I never intended for Scizor or Volcarona to actually go Uber, I just wanted a discussion about them to take place. Pretty much everything Frost said is how I feel about them.

To be completely honest it'd be interesting to see scizor gone from Standard... If you really think about it Scizor is what the metagame almost revolves around, its why you bring hp fire on latias or celebi. Its the reason Terrakion can be stopped and why ttar runs flamethrower sometimes. Its the main thing Heatran always gets a free switch in too, same for jellicent, ferro, and rotom-w. Seeing how the metagame would cope with the loss of scizor would be interesting because it would make you fill that hole with some other priority user that is weaker. I'd like to see how the metagame would cope without it but i think it'd just be too risky.

I'm wondering, has the deadline for voting actually passed, or will the voting period be extended? If it is not extended, then everything up for a vote will stay in its current tier.

It won't be extended, and how the Truck did Empoleon meet resistance? I really can't make sense of this vote and it makes me sad for our voting system.

It's honestly just a slow month. Gen 5 is winding down, so naturally voting will too. It's not like anything of extreme urgency was even nominated this month. All of the cleaning and contentious things were taken care of already.