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 August Tier Voting Discussion

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kingtrace
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PostSubject: August Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:07 pm

Tier votes are coming up fairly soon, so I figured I'd give folks a chance to discuss their thoughts on the tiers. Topics I expect to come up:

Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T as Ubers
Dragonite as an Uber
Recent Jirachi ban
Recent Darkrai uban
Genesect, is it uber?

Anything else you guys want to discuss for tiers is fair game. Keep it civil.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:12 pm

Thunderus and Thunderus-T are assholes and have a lot of things that do only normal damage because of the Electric sub type


I honestly don't think Dragonite should be an uber considering Multiscale breaks after being hit once and after that it's pretty much done for

Darkrai *shudders*


Jirachi is a dick with it's para flinching and it's scary as fuck when it uses calm minds

Genesect is an asshole...

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:34 pm

I don't know what dragonite you've seen, but the ones I see generally can sweep without multiscale after it's broken or can use roost to get another one. And I agree that Thundurus-T hits like a truck, but asshole is a bit vague. I personally don't like it, but I can't say I find it super broken.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:55 pm

Thundurus-T hits hard, but it has low speed, which means that 99% of them will probably be wearing Scarfs. Sure, it is a great scarfer, but everyone expects it. Because of its relative predictability, I think that it should stay in OU. It also loses to most other scarfers, like Terrakion

Tornadus-T should also be in OU. It has some nifty tools, but I don't see it being too overpowered for OU.

I don't think that Dragonite and Jirachi should be ubers. Dragonite's Multiscale breaks due to sandstorm and stealth rock even, so its not that broken in my opinion. Also, I just don't see Jirachi being too good for OU.

I also think that Genesect should be Uber (it gets great coverage), and Darkrai should be Uber (because of stats and Dark Void)

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:20 am

Thundurus-T to UBERS
Tornadus-T to UBERS
Dragonite to UBERS
Alakazam to STANDARD
Gastrodon to STANDARD
Tentacruel to STANDARD
Toxicroak to STANDARD
Gyrados to CREATIVE
Durant to CREATIVE
Weavile to CREATIVE
Quagsire to CREATIVE
Sandslash to CREATIVE
Donphan to CREATIVE
Dugtrio to CREATIVE

Thundurus hits like an angry, barely resited truck who can kill most counters with the appropriate move. Definately ubers.
Tornadus-T is a hurrican spamming monster that WILL. NOT. DIE.
Dragonite for always being broken.
Everything else is just housekeeping, I have reasons if you care.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:00 am

Thundurus-T - Lets take Chandelure's Sp Attack, give it a 120 base power 100 accuracy Stab, make it immune to Electric. Oh and give it the same stealth rock weakness but immunity to all other hazards. Speed, hm, I know, 101, 1 base speed higher than the "good" speed. Kingtrace almost said what I was thinking, Thundurus-T hits like an Angry.

Tornadus-T - You can't kill it, the only way to kill it when they aren't ready to sacrifice it is to pursuit trap it, now the problem is getting a Pursuit trapper that kills Tornadus-T from 75% and getting one a good chunk of teams. Oh and it has to live Superpower, oh and hit through Confusion. Good Luck!

Dragonite @Multiscale - Take it from someone who's used every kind of Dragonite, Dragonite is broken. I'll wait for someone's counter argument before I go into intense detail.

Gyarados - While Gyarados is a scary girl in Standard sometimes, it's not getting enough attention in the tier. It won't actually be as scary in Creative either since it won't have rain support.

Everything else, I don't feel like there will be an argument about them so I'll wait. aka housekeeping.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:43 am

I'll add a few of my own housekeeping suggestions to the list.
Amoonguss to CREATIVE
Sawsbuck to CREATIVE
Cresselia to CREATIVE
Whimsicott to INSPIRED
Darmanitan to CREATIVE

Amoonguss and Cress are just too good at walling to be in inspired. How they got there in the first place is beyond me.
Sawsbuck just isn't that good even with sun. Venu is a much better sun sweeper
Whimsicott is an embarrassment. Seriously it just sucks. The move to inspired is long overdue.
Darmanitan is like victini. It hits like a truck and dies. While it's powerful, it also kills itself incredibly quickly, and it's not that adequate for dealing with most of the Standard tier anyways.

Dragonite is a pain, nuff said

I disagree for Gyrados. In the right hands it can become like a mini-mence. How much attention it gets shouldn't matter. It's still powerful enough. And saying it will be weaker without rain is like saying Venusaur will be weaker without sun. Should we demote that too?

I could care less about Thundurus and Tornadus though. Meh.

Jirachi needs to stay dead. Period.

I'm not entirely sure about Weavile though. I mean you want to move Alakazam up but it down? They're in the same vein if you ask me. Fast, powerful, frail attackers who commonly carry sashes. Yes Weavile's defensive typing is garbage, but it's hella fast and hits really hard.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:04 am

Thundurus-T to Ubers
Thundurus to Ubers

The Thundurus twins both hit like Angrys (whatever that may be), they get good coverage, and they have enoug speed to be considered threats.

Weavile to CREATIVE
Sawsbuck to CREATIVE
Darmanitan to CREATIVE
Zapdos to CREATIVE
Mew to CREATIVE
Cresselia to CREATIVE
Donphan to CREATIVE
Amoonguss to CREATIVE
Dugtrio to CREATIVE

Weavile is too frail, and its moves don't even have that much base power, to be considered standard material. Venusaur outclasses Sawsbuck in the 'sun-sweeping' role, and you're really only going to use Sawsbuck in Sun anyway. Like Frost said, Darmanitan dies really easily, so it doesn't really fit into standard. Zapdos should be moved down to Creative. There are beter walls out there, and I seriously haven't seen a Zapdos used o here in a long time. I think that we shuld see how it fares in Creative. Mew can learn every TM / HM, but its stats aren't the best, and its pure Psychic typing leaves it with few resistences. As Frost said, Cresselia and Amonguss are great walling Pokemon that shouldn't be as low as Inspired. Donphan also is a decent Pokemon, and should be in Creative. Dugtrio can trap various Pokemon with Arena trap, something very few other Pokmon can do. It also has stabbed Earthquake and great speed, so it also belongs in Creative.

Jirachi to STANDARD
Gastrodon to STANDARD
Toxicroak to STANDARD
Celebi to STANDARD

I don't feel that Jirachi is broken enough to reside in Ubers. Gastrodon is a good wall, especially because of Storm Drain, and it belongs in OU because of people using Politoed's Rain-boosted attacks. Toxicroak also thrives in Rain, but it is decent outside of Rain. It also is immune to Water attacks, and it just belongs in Standard. Celebi may have a lot of weaknesses, but it is versatile and has decent bulk. Celebi, Toxicroak, and Gastrodon are all also good Pokemon in Creative, being able to take on many threats.

Whimsicott to INSPIRED

Whimsicott just fails at life. There should be a Whimsicott tier just for Whimsicott that goes below Inspired.

Also, a few other things:

I don't think that Tornadus-T is broken enough to be an Uber. Like I have said before, it has some nifty tools, but doesn't have too much power.

I don't think that Gyarados needs to be moved down to Creative. I've used Gyarados in a lot of battles, especially on my Rain teams, and it has done well in many of them.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:49 pm

First, if people are curious as to why cress and amoongus are in inspired, ask invalid. XD
But, on the topic of Tornadus-T, flying type is a extremely difficult offensive typing to deal with, as it is only resisted by Electric, Rock, and Steel. Two of these types are very common, but they're in combination with pokemon that are either too frail (Bulky Rotom-W is two hit ko'd by life orb hurricane, heatran isn't a fan of Focus Blast) or rendered flying neutral by their secondary typing (Ferrothorn, Scizor). Chansey barely stands a chance, as superpower wrecks it, and it doesn't enjoy taking hurricanes in the face. With hazard support, I'm pretty sure even the mighty pink bitch is taken down in two hits of superpower. And none of this would be a problem if the thing would fucking DIE! Regenarator heals off SR and weak hits, and heals off damage that would otherwise be crippling like almost there super effective hits. If they have a spinner, this thing might as well be immortal. No, it can't sweep whole teams single handedly IN MOST CASES (without genius predicting on my part, it can sweep almost all of mine) it certainly can take two or three things down with it before it goes, which is way too many.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:08 pm

I wasn't quite advocating for Weavile to stay in standard, but to me it seems ridiculous to want Alakazam in a higher tier than it. They're both incredibly fast and monstrously strong pokes, weighed down by terrible defenses and defensive typing. To advocate that one should be in a higher tier than the other just seems strange to me. They're both insanely frail, so why should one move up while the other moves down? If anything Weavile should probably just go down to creative and Alakazam should stay where it is.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:47 pm

Alakazam and Weavile, I believe, should both be in Creative. True, they both have high speed and high offensive stats, but they are limited by their small amount of defenses. In the cae of Alakazam, I have used it before, and haven't been really impressed with it. I used the Sashed set, and it seemed to me that it couldn't damage things enough to KO them, and that Alakazam really can't switch into any attacks, barring something like Toxic or Will-o-Wisp. I haven't used Weavile that much, but I know that it is just like Alakazam in many ways.

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PostSubject: Re: August Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:18 pm

I don't really have any educated form of argument for the separation of weavile and alakazam, except that alakazam has a much, much better ability than Weavile and a lack of weakness to hazards, or lack of being effected by them at all, really. And it appears we all agree that Tornadus-T is both an angry and broken. XD

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