November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of November 2013. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

Here's some shit to get you all inflamed and ready to vote:

Stuff to discuss moving up:

Prankster Klefki
Talonflame
Aegislash
Zygarde
Deoyxs-A
Some Megas

Stuff to discuss moving down:
Kyurem-B
Zekrom

Mega Gengar should go Uber. It can OHKO plenty of Standard Pokemon with no consequence what-so-ever and they can't even switch out of it. Normally you would get to choose when to fodder something to its counter, when it doesn't have any more use in the match, but with Mega Gengar, you can be forced to give up something crucial. There is a much longer much more viable list of Pokemon that are taken out in 1 shot by Gengar than Magnezone. It's Stats are 130 Spe 170 SpA for anyone unaware. With steel's new nerf in this generation, Sludge Bomb + Shadow Ball is almost perfect coverage, the only thing it actually cares about not hitting is Tyranitar which it can carry Focus Blast for.

Here's a list of some of the Standard Pokemon that are completely screwed over by Mega Gengar: Blissey, Breloom, Chansey, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Cressellia, Deo-D, Espeon, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Latias, Latios, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Metagross, Mew, Reuniclus, Serperior, Stoutland, Terrakion, Tyranitar.

Also everyone should remember that because of the tier reset pretty much everything is in Breakdown standard. So there are a lot of weaker things that need to be cleaned up.

I'm undecided for Mega Lucario. It's extremely powerful, but I haven't used it or seen it in action enough to see whether or not it's a major issue.

Prankster Klefki is out of control. I agree, it's gotta go. Talonflame with Galewings is also a Butch from Team Rocket. I personally think the combo should be banned. The thing is fast enough already, it doesn't need to be bypassing other priority too. Not to mention priority Roost.

Shaymin S needs to go back to uber. It's fast, haxy, and powerful. Basically the same reasons it's always been there.

There's been some talk about the Deoxys forms going down as well. We already had D and S in standard, so they shouldn't be an issue. I personally think A needs to stay uber, but I'm willing to talk about normal Deoxys.

Also just off the top of my head, Togekiss and Exploud are two things that definitely should not be returning to the lower tiers where we had them last gen. Both of them were given a lot of new utility that makes them Standard worthy. The same can probably said for Azumarill.

Clefable could probably move up from its previous position too. Its new typing is a total improvement for it, and the Cosmic+Stored power set can be a pain to break through. I personally don't know if it should be standard, but I've seen it used reasonably well there.

(Yes I know "everything is standard" right now, but tons of things are gonna have to move around so I just wanted to include some noteworthy references.)

I have recently had a change of heart, and I no longer think TalonFlame deserves to be Ubers. It hits moderately hard with its priority moves, but that doesn't make it Ubers. It is already fairly fast, so this only really helps it use Roost and Tailwind well.

Priority Tailwind didn't make anything else that gets it Ubers.

I honestly think its the Fire/Flying type that I've always wanted, and it deserves to be Standard, no higher.

If someone could please explain in detail why it should go up, I'll listen.

Here are some Pokemon that I think should be Uber:

Mega Alakazam: It has frail defenses still, but its special attack and speed are ridiculous compared to what most Pokémon have. This seems like a no brainer to me. To be clear, I want to ban the mega evolution item, not the Pokémon itself.

Mega Gengar: It also has very high attack and speed, Shadow Tag helps it a ton, and its Ghost attacks now hit Steel Pokémon neutrally. Also a no brainer.

Mega Heracross: Chances are that it can take a hit thanks to its above-average defenses, then KO the opponent with an attack coming off of base 185 attack. I'm still undecided on this one though.

Mega Tyranitar: Its stats are very high in general, and after a dragon dance, it can be difficult to stop.

Mega Medicham: It's attack is super-high, and its speed is acceptable enough to outpace a good number of threats.

Klefki + Prankster: I've already discussed this earlier.

Also, a few other Pokémon:
[spoiler] Blaziken, Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, Deoxys, Thundurus + Prankster[ /spoiler]

Here are some Pokémon that I think should be in standard that were not there before:

Jirachi: Its still a good Pokémon, but it has four weaknesses now as opposed to the two weaknesses that it had last generation. This means that it loses the ability to effectively take on certain Pokémon, because of these weaknesses. Furthermore, the Calm Mind Rain-based set that worked so well for it before doesn't work as well now because of the Rain-nerf.

Excadrill: Its still a great sand sweeper, but weather has been nerfed in general, making Excadrill have less power than it did before.

Drizzle + Swift Swim + Kingdra, etc: Guess what...Rain only lasts five turns now, so these kinds of strategies are less viable now.

I should probably point out that Darkrai is Standard right now.

kingtrace wrote:

I should probably point out that Darkrai is Standard right now.

But sleep has been nerfed this generation as well...(Darkrai should be uber though, most definitely)

I'm just making sure everyone is aware, I personally think that Darkrai isn't worth making Uber. It was questionable in a Gen that had a more beneficial Sleep system and less powerful special walls.

Oh, and the Fairy type is a thing now.

Since so many things are in the discussion right now forgive me skipping past a few things I could probably contribute to, I'd like to only point out the things Steel said that I disagree with and why.

steel dragons wrote:

Here are some Pokemon that I think should be Uber:

Mega Alakazam: It has frail defenses still, but its special attack and speed are ridiculous compared to what most Pokémon have.  This seems like a no brainer to me.  To be clear, I want to ban the mega evolution item, not the Pokémon itself.
...
Mega Heracross: Chances are that it can take a hit thanks to its above-average defenses, then KO the opponent with an attack coming off of base 185 attack.  I'm still undecided on this one though.

Mega Tyranitar: Its stats are very high in general, and after a dragon dance, it can be difficult to stop.

Mega Medicham: It's attack is super-high, and its speed is acceptable enough to outpace a good number of threats.  
...
Here are some Pokémon that I think should be in standard that were not there before:
...
Excadrill: Its still a great sand sweeper, but weather has been nerfed in general, making Excadrill have less power than it did before.

Drizzle + Swift Swim + Kingdra, etc: Guess what...Rain only lasts five turns now, so these kinds of strategies are less viable now.

Mega Alakazam's SpA boost does not make up for the lack of Life Orb. Its Special attack is 449 to Life Orb Alakazam's effective 479 (both are Timid for this comparison). When choosing Alakazam Mega, you're trading Magic Guard for Trace, and throwing away some damage output for 30 Speed. That speed is very nice, but Alakazam never struggled in the speed department. It's debatable whether Mega Alakazam is even as good as regular Alakazam, and when that's the case I don't see how it can be considered Uber.

Mega Heracross is in a very similar boat to Mega Alakazam. It gives up an item slot, however you may use that (scarf, toxic orb, sash, salac berry), for a lot of stat boosts and the loss of a good ability (either guts or moxie). Heracross may choose to run moxie to get a boost, then mega evolve after scoring a KO, but moxie Heracross has always relied on choice scarf to get it by. You've said before that Skill Link is a good ability for it, but that's just not true. Pin Missile is the only move it gets any advantage with, 125 BP 95% accuracy compared to Mega Horn's 120 BP and 85% accuracy. This very small benefit is easily, and I mean incredibly easily outweighed by either Guts or Moxie. Mega Heracross may be usable due to its stat changes, but it will not be Uber. When it's unclear whether it even outclasses regular Heracross, I don't see how it can come close to Uber, unless you're TL35 (old reference is old).

Mega Tyranitar does have high stats, let's ban Cresellia. But seriously, while it does become very Powerful, it's so easily revenged it's probably not even worth running. Just about any Scarfer should be able to kill it after something weakens it. All Scarfed fighting types should be able to deal with it all the time, and I'm counting Primape here. Keep in mind that again, this guy (or girl) has no item, you don't have to worry about sash, chople berry, lum berry, or even off the wall babiri berry or red card, you just look at it, know what it is, and kill it.

Mega Medicham does not hit as hard as banded regular medicham, but in this case I'm not using that to rule it out as competitively viable. With Mega-Cham you're trading 17% of your damage output (598 compared to 720 atk (this assumes Jolly because that's what it should be running)) for respectable speed, bulk that might let you actually live hits and the ability to change moves. Mega-Cham is undeniably better than regular Medicham, but I do not believe that makes it broken. Mega-Cham is actually incredibly similar to something we've all been fine with (as far as I know) since Gen 5 came out, Reckless Mienshao. Reckless + Life Orb boosted Hi Jump Kick from a Jolly Mienshao hits 90.9% as hard as Jolly Mega-Cham's Hi Jump Kick, and Mienshao has a crucial 5 more speed than Mega-Cham. If Mienshao runs a Choice Band, it completely offensively outclasses Mega-Cham aside from not being locked in. To me Mega-Cham just slips in between a bunch of other fighting types in terms of what it can do and its attack and defense. I don't see it as being Uber, perhaps high standard tier.

Excadrill and Drizzle Swim: The weather nerf primarily hurts Defensive weather strategies. Swift Swim (and sand veil) doesn't require perma weather to be effective. You only need 3 turns of rain to force your opponent to pick something to die with Kingdra, and usually you only need 1, I'm giving the opponent the benefit of having either Jellicent or Ferrothorn on it to slow Kingdra down. Perma weather made weather stall good because it didn't force you to waste unnecessary turns setting up weather again by either using rain dance or switching to Politoed. Smacking someone with a Specs Hydro Pump in Rain does not require any more than 1 turn. (apply everything I just said to excadrill, assume adamant life orb excadrill.)

steel dragons wrote:

kingtrace wrote:

I should probably point out that Darkrai is Standard right now.

But sleep has been nerfed this generation as well...(Darkrai should be uber though, most definitely)

Sleeping has been nerfed?How so?

The Sleep counter has returned to how it used to operate in Gen 4.

It used to be that if you were put to sleep and would stay asleep for four turns, if you switched out on the third turn, you'd have to wait four turns again when you came back in.

Now it has returned to how it used to be, if your sleep counter says you'll be asleep for four turns and you switch out on your third, you will wake up next time you come in and make a move, effectively making it far more possible to actually wake up and thus nerfing sleep.

Everyone should be aware that the nomination process ends VERY soon, and if you want to do anymore discussion, you only have a couple of days left.

My current nomination is going to look like this, for those who are debating.

Down to Standard:

Zekrom
Kyurem - B

Up to Ubers:

Deo
Deo-A
Prankster Klefki
Gengarite
Shaymin-S

Shit I'm still not decided on:

Kangaskahnite
Blaziken
Aegislash

Genesect should be ubers for the same reason it was in the past.

Diogo, I really hope you have a better argument than "it was good in the past."

In the past, it resisted Ghost and Dark type.

Also in the past, there weren't Flying type priority moves that hit it very hard in the face.

Another thing that wasn't in the past, an entire type made of moderately bulky Pokemon that lol at Genesect's coverage and resist U-turn.

You can still make the argument that he's Uber, but you can't just say "we had it banned before." There are tons of changes to the way Genesect functions that you have to address.

Sorry, this was probably a mistake in the English language by my part.

I didn't mean should be, as in it has necessarily will be. I meant it probably will be ubers again,but i'm not sure.

With that, I wanted to start the discussion about it.



When I asked why it was banned in the first place, Invalid replied with this.

After listening to the video, I got to the conclusion that Genesect was uber because it hit hard, and if it felt threatned, it could just U-Turn away.

Also, there was a "number 2 reason" that was skipped, which I might never know now xD

Only Pokémon that resists it's move coverage is Rotom-H and some other non-Standard Pokémon.

Fairy-types come and resist U-Turn, but so did any Fighting, Fire, Flying, Poison, Steel or Ground Pokémon.

It has other coverage moves in Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt.
But still, I don't know the new Pokémon that much, so I'm not sure what has bulk for it now.


And the new Priority Flying,well...

Talonflame hits it for about 

252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 183-216 (64.66 - 76.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pinsir-Mega with Aerielate quick attack hits it for about 

252+ Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 96-114 (33.92 - 40.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

But it's here for discussion, what are it's counters and checks now?What lives through it?Did the Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower BP nerf affect it in any way?

For the record, Maxedofhaxed, who has been voting in this method since it started, has broken an idiot clause by voting Klefki to the same tier it is currently in.

Yeah, that 5 bp nerf really could be relevant now, Genesect could barely kill some threats before with the life orb rock polish set, so that drop could allow them to survive. I think we need to work on things we know are Uber first since most of us probably don't have experience with most of the things discussed. At least I know I don't.

Fair enough.

I also don't get why everyone nominated Standard then Uber, we always go Highest to Lowest.

I'm just wondering, why do some of you think hat the Kangaskhanite and Gale Wings Talonflame are Ubers? They just don't seem Uber, or broken, to me.

For Talonflame: It's biggest selling point is that it has priority Brave Bird, which can be quite good at times. However, it's stats are lacking in many areas besides speed (it only has base 81 attack), and it gets heavily damaged by Stealth Rocks anyway. I just think that its many downfalls prevent it from being broken in the standard tier.

For the Kangaskhanite: Sure, it enables Kangaskhan to have a unique and decent ability. However, this Mega-Stone also restricts Kangaskhan, in that this item doesn't help it besides enabling its Mega-evolution. Also, Kangaskhan essentially gets an Adaptability boost (or a 50% bonus) for every move from Parental Bond, and many of those Adaptability Pokémon aren't broken at all. Finally, Kangaskhan only has a base 125 attack. That attack stat is pretty good, but it isn't insanely high, and Kangaskhan won't be able to OHKO every Pokemon with it. I think that Mega Kangaskhan is a very good Pokémon, but I don't see it as being broken in the standard tier.

Steel, I used to assume you actually played Pokemon, but now I'm thinking that you're just talking through your rear with no estimation of the words you're actually saying.

The Mega-Stone gives Kangaskahn what is essentially a choice band with the ability to change moves, the ability to break any sub or sash, and a massive bulk, attack, and speed upgrade. Can you please tell me what the other, better item it wants is? I'm not seeing one.

Power-Up Punch. For pretty much anyone else that's all I would need to say, but again, you don't seem to have played Pokemon at all, so I'll explain it. When Megakahn uses it, it essentially gets a Swords Dance boost, +2.

Now, here's the fun part. Find me something that doesn't die to a plus two Sucker Punch, Return, Power Up Punch, or Crunch/Fire Punch/Earthquake.

Seriously, get me that long Nas list. What is it, just Quag, Clefable, and a few others?

It literally can kill everything slower with Return, and anything faster with Sucker Punch. Except a few exceptions, but hey, you can switch moves.

There are also three "good" Adaptability users: Dragalge, Porygon-Z, and Mega-Lucario. The first two are a joke, and Mega-Lucario doesn't get to set up to plus +2 basically whenever. Your comparison literally may have shaved six years off my life from rising blood pressure.

I will not stand for theorymoning. Your post almost would make good parody, and if that's what it's meant to be, well done.

Well, at least I think that we agree on Talonflame not being Uber material...

Seriously, I see where you're coming from on the Kangaskhnite though. Had I thought more about it, I probably wouldn't have made that post about that. I've just had a lot on my mind, I guess.

Anyway, I'm surprised that there haven't been any nominations for Genesect or Darkrai yet. They both got worse this generation though, so I'm not really surprised (Genesect lost its Ghost and Dark resistances, and Darkrai's main move coverage of dark / fighting are both resisted by fairies) However, Genesect is still a good scarf user despite the bolt/beam/flame nerf, and Darkrai is still the fastest Pokémon to have a good sleeping move, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are voted uber at some point.

What do you all think; will Genesect and Darkrai become ubers again, or will they be relegated to the mediocre ranks of standard?

I think i've discussed Genesect before in the chat, and I think it will be Standard. It also needs now the inclusion of Flash Cannon to actually hurt Faeries, or else they'll just resist anything it has for them.

Darkrai isn't that strong anymore, and people who use Dark Void as an argument, that won't work that nicely. 80% Accuracy and Sleep Nerf, + Darkrai has a whole new type that takes care of it's Nas. As you mentioned before, it's perfect coverage combo also has a new flaw in Fairy Type.

We'll see a lot of new sets and so, I think this first Uber voting will just be an "experiment", as Gen VI goes on, more stuff will be eventually found as Uber.

Back to Steel equivocating Parental Bond to Adaptability. It is nothing like adaptability, and I'll be happy to explain why. Adaptability does not mulitply your base power by 1.5 as you said. It changes STAB from 1.5x to 2x, to get from 1.5 to 2 you do not multiply by 1.5, you multiply by 4/3 or 1.333. Adaptability has another flaw just in base power alone compared to Parental Bond, it only works on STAB moves. People misunderstanding Adaptability really bothers me as a math geek.