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 January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion

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PostSubject: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:08 am

Discuss your tier votes in this thread. This link goes to the voting thread: http://breakdown.forumotion.com/t614-january-2014-tier-nomination-thread#3894

Happy flaming.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:34 am

Hey guys, I'm not dead; I'm actually quite alive. I just had a hernia surgery today, so I'm having LOADS of fun right now dealing with the pain associated with that.

Anyway, here are the nominations that I'm probably going to make. If any of you have any issues with my nominations, please let me know. I'll probably wait a day or two before making these final.

Mewtwoite X to UBERS
Mewtwoite Y to UBERS
Darkrai to UBERS
Serperior to CREATIVE
Stoutland to CREATIVE
Aromatisse to CREATIVE
Aurorus to CREATIVE
Avalugg to CREATIVE
Barbaracle to CREATIVE
Carbink to CREATIVE
Chesnaught to CREATIVE
Clawitzer to CREATIVE
Dedenne to CREATIVE
Delphox to CREATIVE
Florges to CREATIVE
Furfrou to CREATIVE
Gogoat to CREATIVE
Gourgeist to CREATIVE
Hawlucha to CREATIVE (seeing a trend here?)
Heliolisk to CREATIVE
Malamar to CREATIVE
Meowstic-Female to CREATIVE
Meowstic-Male to CREATIVE
Pangoro to CREATIVE
Pyroar to CREATIVE
Slurpuff to CREATIVE
Sylveon to CREATIVE
Talonflame to CREATIVE
Vivillon to CREATIVE

Also, I think we should have a Mega Stone clause, basically stating that Mega Stones should be either on the same tier as the related Pokémon, or that they should be above the same tier as the related Pokémon. To me, having Mega Stones below the related Pokémon doesn't make any logical sense. One example of this is having the Mega Stones for Mewtwo being in standard, and this doesn't make to me, since those Mega Stones don't help any current standard Pokémon.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:19 pm

It's odd, I'm also not dead.

First, all of the sixth gen pokemon.


Just to be clear, I'm saying that the following should all be in standard:


And that X and Y should be in Uber.



Now, for Mega Evolutions. I'm going by dex order. If I feel the pokemon should be something different than the stone, the pokemon will be tiered in parenthesis. Otherwise, all Pokemon and their stones share a tiering:




Also, it has come to my attention that apparently Darkrai is Standard?

Darkrai to UBER.



I think I'm done.
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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:31 pm

I will be voting Gale Wings Taloneflame down to Standard because I still feel like the raw numbers of the amount of angry Talonflame can hit like lead to a decision that was premature, and that the amount of time our users have had to use it on other servers may have changed their minds. On top of that, Rotom-W is the most popular Pokemon this gen (getting between 20-25%), which severely limits its usability. On top of that, we've all found our lord and savior Mandibuzz, which Talonflame is nearly incapable of breaking (+4 Talonflame can OHKO it, but you have to do a lot of fucking around to get to that point).

Steel, I think you missed the addendum for this vote. You can vote any Non-Uber gen 6 Pokemon to any tier, not just down one/up one.

Sereperior may worry me in Creative, but Blissey is there right now, so maybe it. It can still wreck plenty of shit, though.

Here's my probable list for Gen 6 mons.

Immanancy, the Megastones are already tiered, you should probably look into that before you make a vote. Also, Darkai is Standard because it's typing and niche got nerfed slightly. Dark types have a new resist and weakness, and Sleep is back to Pre-Gen Five mechanics. It was being considered for Standard in Gen 5, and it didn't get any better for Gen 6.

Aromatisse to TESLA
Aurorus to INSPIRED
Avalugg to INSPIRED
Barbaracle to CREATIVE/STAY This thing is Carracosta with the right stats and movepool for the job, and it being Creative strikes me as something to think about.
Carbink to TESLA
Chesnaught to CREATIVE
Clawitzer to CREATIVE
Dedenne to TESLA
Delphox to INSPIRED/TESLA I haven't decided on this yet, it blows VERY hard, but I don't know if it's Tesla hard.
Florges to CREATIVE
Furfrou to INSPIRED
Gogoat to TESLA
Gourgeist to CREATIVE
Hawlucha to INSPIRED
Heliolisk to INSPIRED
Malamar to CREATIVE
Meowstic-Female to TESLA
Meowstic-Male to TESLA
Pangoro to INSPIRED
Pyroar to INSPIRED
Slurpuff to TELSA
Sylveon to CREATIVE
Talonflame I intend to unban Gale Wings on, which is going to get really weird this vote since I also agree that if Gale Wings remains banned, Talonflame should drop.
Vivillon to INSPIRED

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:36 pm

@Kingtrace: Yeah, I must have missed the addendum to that vote. i'll readjust my votes accordingly for those related Pokémon.
Also, I agree that Darkrai got worse this generation, but it still is a decent Pokémon, and its the fastest Pokémon with a good sleeping move. I'll most likely be nominating it for Ubers, but I won't be surprised if it stays in standard.

@Immanency: I'm surprised that you intend to vote Tyrantrum to creative and have Sylveon stay in standard, as I just don't quite 'see it' that way. For Tyrantrum, it is probably the most viable Pokémon right now that has the Rock Head / Head Smash combination. It has moves like Dragon Dance and Rock Polish, and it has mostly decent stats. It also can somewhat use Strong Jaw well even, as it has the elemental fangs and Crunch. For Sylveon, I don't think that its a horrible Pokémon, but I just don't think that it should be in standard. It does have something going for it though, it gets Hyper Voice + Pixilate, which isn't bad at all. (Hyper Voice becomes a base 117 power, Fairy type attack, and I'm not factoring in stab there) I just don't think that Sylveon is as good or as useful as the other Fairy Pokémon Azumarill and Togekiss, so I don't think that it should be in standard.

I'm also going to vote down Klefki to Creative, since it isn't as good without Prankster

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:25 pm

@SD:

Gosh, Tyrantrum looks really good on paper but in reality it tends to fall flat. I've never seen a Tyrantrum take out more than one pokemon, and the only time that happened was when it was a CB Head Smash. I'm totally comfortable voting that into Creative.

Sylveon, on the other hand, is still very much liked. It's not used as an offensive powerhouse so much as a defensive pivot against dragons. Specially defensive Sylveon can pretty decently wall most special dragons and hit back with Fairy STAB. It sets up screens, wishes, then hits dragons hard.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:08 pm

For the record, I am currently looking to vote Slurgge into CANG Ubers, because it is EXACTLY the kind of bulk up user that is nigh unstoppable. It has great SpDef, HP, and Def, and an amazing move pool that includes Drain Punch. Gooey is actually way too good for this, surprisingly, allowing you to get extra boosts/slack off right when you need to. The typing is also way to good both offensively and defensively. I even feel like it might be broken in Ubers, that's how worrying it is.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:44 am

Steel Dragons wrote:
Also, I vote for the 'Mega Stone Clause' (basically stating that Mega Stones should be either on the same tier as the related Pokémon, or that they should be above the same tier as the related Pokémon.) to be implemented.

That's stupid as hell. It makes no difference whatsoever if a blissey wants to hold a Mewtwonite X. We don't need to engage in frivolous bans that will just result in more coding for me and more work in votes later.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:03 am

I hereby formally request a speech detailing why Darkrai should be Uber. Tick tock.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:32 am

t1ck t0ck

Darkrai is a 125 speed 135 special attack Nasty Plot sweeper with access to a 90% accurate sleep move.

He's hurt by fairy types, sure, but them being fairies doesn't make them any more resistant to Dark Void. Dark Void + Bad Dreams makes Darkrai a fantastic wallbreaker in Standard, doing %health each turn in addition to whatever damage he's putting out from his fantastic special attack, or doing the same while he's boosting with Nasty Plot.

We throw in Blissey, THE special wall of Standard, against a +2 Darkrai:

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 414-488 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This isn't even counting Bad Dreams, which, if Blissey is the one put to sleep, will deal 1/4 HP over 2 turns.

I don't want Darkrai in OU.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:18 am

Immanency wrote:
with access to a 90% accurate sleep move.
I've made that mistake a million times, it's 80% actually.

Immanency wrote:
He's hurt by fairy types, sure, but them being fairies doesn't make them any more resistant to Dark Void. Dark Void + Bad Dreams makes Darkrai a fantastic wallbreaker in Standard, doing %health each turn in addition to whatever damage he's putting out from his fantastic special attack, or doing the same while he's boosting with Nasty Plot.
Fairy Type breaks up Darkrai's fighting dark coverage. The idea way of playing a Fairy against Darkrai is to sleep fodder something else, then send in your fairy. Even a +2 Sludge Bomb (Which I tested to see if Dark Poison could be as good as Dark Fighting used to be) will not kill a bulky Togekiss. Sleep foddering is also not as bad this generation because your sleep timer no longer resets when you switch out, so Pokemon that have been put to sleep are much more recoverable.

Immanency wrote:

We throw in Blissey, THE special wall of Standard, against a +2 Darkrai:

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 414-488 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This isn't even counting Bad Dreams, which, if Blissey is the one put to sleep, will deal 1/4 HP over 2 turns.
Chansey is a way better special wall, but let's stick with Blissey for now for your sake. This is relying on Focus Blast hitting twice in a row, so when you copy over the "guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery" what's actually there is a 49% of a 2HKO. Those EVs suck Nas, but better EVs don't particularly make a difference in this scenario so, I'll leave that. If sleep fodder was used, which it seems to have been since you're assuming Darkrai is +2, then Blissey can thunder wave it, then just keep healing until it has safe opportunities to seismic toss and stall out Darkrai, or just toxic and forgo the need to seismic toss at all, but that wouldn't be as safe.

Chansey which I alluded to earlier has an even easier time with Darkrai, it has only a 0.588% (1.2% of getting the right damage rolls, 49% chance of being hit each time) chance to be 2hko'd by 2 +2 Focus Blast, and will be able to stall Darkrai out the same way as I mentioned.

Chansey, Blissey, and Togekiss, the three switchins that have been mentioned, are also very useful for another reason, after Darkrai is fainted, they can heal bell the sleep fodder back to consciousness.

As for the Bad Dreams thing, I tend to factor leftovers into that mentally, it's just how I think. so I consider it to do 12.5% to Blissey over 2 turns rather than 25%. It's not wrong to think of them independently, it's probably actually better. But since you left their effect over time out, it's not better, it's misleading.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:49 am

You know Steel, you could have just revised Slurrge, it still doesn't have to go to CANG Uber if you'd rather just rework it to work in CANG Standard. Just putting that out there. And it's also fine for you to want to leave it as is and let it be Uber.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:32 pm

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 250-296 (38.94 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is what Darkrai is capable of doing to the premier Special Wall of Standard (Blissey is no longer even in Standard, that's how blatantly outclassed it is.) This is after set up, and assuming it hits three or more Focus Blasts in a row.

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24.12 - 28.41%) -- possible 5HKO

And this is what it does to the other one. Running Focus Blast over Sludge Bomb is makes breaking Kiss impossible.

Obviously, you need to sleep fodder something else, but as Invalid said, that's much safer to do this gen.

Everything else Invalid already said. XD

Also, Slurgge is gonna make an awesome Uber.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:09 am

kingtrace wrote:
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 250-296 (38.94 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The reason I came up with a minuscule chance to 2hko is that I used Bold Chansey. Bold Chansey has greater overall bulk than Calm, and that's kind of the whole point of not running HP in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:14 pm

Ah, I thought I had it set to Bold, because that is the one I run. My bad.

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PostSubject: Re: January 2014 Tier Vote Discussion   Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:02 pm

I hope I'm wrong about Darkrai. I hope he belongs in standard because he's going to be standard.

I'm still going to vote him to Uber, but I know I'm not going to win either this argument or the vote. I hope your testing is correct.

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