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Frost
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PostSubject: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:22 pm

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the cleanup vote. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Things you may want to consider discussing/nominating: Anything that became Fairy Type, anything that gained a Mega-Evolution.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:40 pm

Anything that got a new ability or that got an improvement to its ability, or got some crazy new egg move combination.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Azumarill got Fairy Typing, and a crazy new egg move combination, that being Belly Drum Aqua Jet. I'll be nominating it to Standard.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:16 pm

So here's a few thoughts to get this thing going:

Mega Blastoise, Aggron: Two fantastic megas that I've used and had fairly positive luck with. Both are bulky monsters--'toise is good if you're looking for an offensive spinnter (rapid spin + dark pulse/mega launcher is a fantastic combo), and I've used M-Aggron with max Spec. D as a lead/physical wall.

Infiltrator/sound moves Buff: Infiltrator's ability to hit through subs is wonderful; A++ would use again. I'm not sure it's enough to bump anyone up a tier, but it lends a lot more credibility to a few mons like Crobat, Chandelure, and others. (Is Jumpluff able to set up leech seed/status through subs, by the way?). Of special note is Exploud and it's boomburst attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:19 pm

Chandelure was standard last gen Ori

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:23 pm

Exploud for either Creative/Standard. I would only say Creative if we're finally moving Blissey down there, but otherwise this guy is far too powderful and hits like an angry.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:38 am

We also can't forget about Togekiss and Mawile here as well. Togekiss should be moved up because it is immune to dragon and ground moves, and that move combo is really common with a lot of dragons. Mawile should be moved up because its mega-evolution has a lot of power (it would have 678 power with max attack, which is quite a bit of power). Mawile also has the fairy / steel typing, which only gives it two weaknesses, and also gives it 10 resistances and two immunities.

Also, some of the Pokemon that can use mega stones should be considered as well. I think that Heracross, Pinsir, and Medicham could all fare decently in standard, and may be too powerful for the lower tiers. Blastoise could maybe fall under this as well, since it's mega-evolution is bulky, and it actually gets Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, and Dragon Pulse as egg moves (which personally I think is very odd). This basically means that it could have four moves that are 120 base power or above with 100% accuracy, which is not bad at all (I'm including Water Pulse here as well).

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Can we vote to only move up the pokemons mega stone? Because with out it, stuff like mawhile is next to worthless.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:57 pm

Yes, I would change my vote if we're nominating mega stknes for standard

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:26 pm

Steel, I continue to be unable to understand why you think Mega-Heracross is any good. As Invalid explained a million years ago, Skill Link doesn't help it, and Moxie and Guts can easily make up for the power difference. On top of that, Heracross enjoys the speed from Choice Scarf.

Is there any reason why MegaCross should actually go to Standard?

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:31 pm

And I agree that we should be nominating the Stones to move tiers, not the Pokemon.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:11 am

Okay, Steel, now you've got me completely compuzzled.

Despite Galvantula gaining one of the single best moves in the game, Sticky Web, and being hands down the best user of the move (or at least tied with Smeargle) along with having great stats and movepool, doesn't deserve to move to Standard?

In the same vein, Breloom, a Pokemon that previously had literally no counters, now has as many checks as there are Grass types, several of them being full counters. And Mandibuzz, the physical wall to rule them all in Gen 6, is immune to Spore and laughs at Loom's feeble Mach Punches, and KOs with Foul Play should it dare Swords Dance. Why is this still a Standard Pokemon?

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:25 am

Queenpants' vote no longer counts due to false advertising

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:14 pm

I can't quite put my finger on it, but for some reason I feel inclined to point out that my "advertising" (whatever that means) is 100% true, and every KEEP in my vote, except the one that exists for explanatory purposes, is most definitely decorated to specifications.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:39 pm

Looking back on the nomination I feel that we should have nominated Snorlax down too so it wouldn't be stuck competing with Blissey in Creative. As a Gen 4 guy I can remember it being useful over Blissey in some ways, but we've got more options now and I don't see a point in Snorlax having to compete with Blissey. I'll probably nominate it down next month.

Steel, I feel as though Trace didn't properly explain Breloom to you. Grass types are now immune to spore moves, that includes Spore. That means any Grass Type which resists Focus Punch/Mach Punch can be switched in on Breloom with ease and counter it. Pokemon of note that now counter Breloom include Venusaur, Gorgeist, Trevenant, Whimsicott (with a good set), Roserade, and Celebi. There are only a few more that are true counters, but they don't merit use in Standard, Whimsicott might still be a stretch this gen. The new sleep mechanics also don't help Breloom, once something is put to sleep now, it's not just out of commission for the rest of the match, it can be brought in and out to kill sleep turns like the old days. These factors combined spell out Breloom moving down a tier to me. And I used to want Breloom to go Uber (I never nominated it, so don't give me a hard time).

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:52 pm

Also Amoonguss counters Breloom, while last gen it was arguably only a check because of spore's mechanics. Not only is it immune to spore, it resists every move breloom commonly uses, and usually carries SE coverage against it.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:51 pm

@Kingtrace: My replies are in red

Okay, Steel, now you've got me completely compuzzled.
Wow, thats the first time you've said that to me...oh wait...

Despite Galvantula gaining one of the single best moves in the game, Sticky Web, and being hands down the best user of the move (or at least tied with Smeargle) along with having great stats and movepool, doesn't deserve to move to Standard?
I agree that Galvantula is likely the best user of the move Sticky Web. I wouldn't say that it has awesome stats, but it has a decent movepool. However, it doesn't have good defenses at all; and its special attack is only sub-par. Having compoundeyes Thunder does help, but Galvantula is like a (normal) mosquito - it stings you, but doesn't kill you I just don't see it as being standard because of one move, especially since this move won't have an immediate benefit to Galvantula (unlike Breloom with Spore, for instance)

In the same vein, Breloom, a Pokemon that previously had literally no counters, now has as many checks as there are Grass types, several of them being full counters. And Mandibuzz, the physical wall to rule them all in Gen 6, is immune to Spore and laughs at Loom's feeble Mach Punches, and KOs with Foul Play should it dare Swords Dance. Why is this still a Standard Pokemon?
You have a point there; I simply forgot about the most recent change of Spore not affecting Grass Pokemon. If I have a chance, I would change that vote to 'MOVE'. (Invalid / Kingtrace, I would actually appreciate it if you changed that vote for me.)

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:07 pm

I agree that Galvantula is likely the best user of the move Sticky Web. I wouldn't say that it has awesome stats, but it has a decent movepool. However, it doesn't have good defenses at all; and its special attack is only sub-par. Having compoundeyes Thunder does help, but Galvantula is like a (normal) mosquito - it stings you, but doesn't kill you I just don't see it as being standard because of one move, especially since this move won't have an immediate benefit to Galvantula (unlike Breloom with Spore, for instance)

Steel, I feel like you're vastly underestimating the power of Thunder off of even a SpA like Galvantula's. Being able to run the move without set up is a huge boon, and it also has the impressive 30% paralysis chance.

When your goal is to set up SW and die, or to set up, live with 1% and MAYBE set it up again later, you're obviously going to run a sash. Galvantula functions best as a lead, just like Smeargle, the other user of the move.

It doesn't benefit Galvantula directly on the first turn, no, but if it kills your opponent's lead, or your opponent switches, or Galvantula comes back later, then it's getting the full usage of it.

"It" by the way being a move that impacts Speed, the single most valuable stat in this entire game. If your opponent doesn't have it, SW makes Pokemon like Haxorus much more threatening right from the get go. It is one of the best entry hazards ever, and even though Defog is ruining entry hazards right now I still think the single best user of the move could stand to go up to Standard.

TL;DR

-Thunder hits very hard and has a good para chance.
-Galvantula is a suicide lead, so bulk is unimportant.
-Sticky Web is a very good move and the best user of the move should go up just for having it.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleanup Vote Discussion    Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:56 pm

This is a big part of why we're moving down Metagross and Sableye. We know for sure now that having something in Standard does not boost its standard usage. So do we think Galvantula will actually be used in Standard? I think it's very unlikely that Galvantula will be a rare sight in Standard. Sticky Web is in many ways better than Stealth Rock, the previous standard for "best" or "most critical" move in the game. Since Galvantula is almost inarguably the best sticky web user, I can see it being used a lot in Standard.

Now as a hazard user, what support does it have? Basically it has Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Light Screen, none of which are that coveted, and none do much at all for Galvantula. Light Screen might be able to support the team with a dedicated set, but Thunder Wave (or Thunder's paralysis) is almost entirely unnecessary with Sticky Web slowing things down for you. Everything gets Toxic and it's not good on suicide pokes anyway. So what alternative means of "support" does it have. Well, the biggest issue for a lot of Hazards users is, how does it deal with Magic Bounce? Some of the best Hazard setters are able to hit them for super effective damage, like Tyranitar in gen 5. Galvantula's STAB hits all three Magic Bounce users super effectively. So in that way, it has nice support. That said, M-Absol and Espeon outspeed it, so it won't always enjoy them coming in, and if it uses Sticky Web on the switch, it's still going to set up Sticky Web on its own team.

My opinion on Galvantula is that it's more than likely Standard material, and that we should put it in Standard during the clean up vote. If for some reason it doesn't hold up, we can nominate it down next month.


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