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 November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:19 am

@Diogo: I agree with Genesect not being an uber this generation, as it got many nerfs this generation. However, I'm not quite sold on Darkrai not being uber. Like I said before, it is the fastest Pokémon to have a good sleeping move. After a successful use of Dark Void, it can basically have a free turn to do whatever, either set up, or simply launch an attack coming from base 135 special attack. I know that there are ways to get around Darkrai, but it can still be a pain to deal with.

@Invalid: That's true, I always forget that its not a 1.5 boost to the attack stat, but rather a 2x boost (in place of the 1.5x boost) to stab moves.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:15 am

It is starting to look more and more like Talonflame is going to be assassinated behind closed doors, because we have two new users who have used at most their third post to try to vote it to Ubers for no reason.

I honestly don't see the point of having a discussion thread if one of the Pokemon that will be voted up doesn't get to have the discussion that usually precedes such a thing.

Only one person seems to have even talked about it negatively at all, and thusly I am still confused as to why what we're currently looking at is a tie.

I asked for a discussion on Talonflame a week ago, so if you think it's Ubers, again, I'm going to ask you to explain why.


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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Alright here's basically the whole of my position on Talonflame. I think it is Uber with Gale Wings. Its Brave Bird has 1.699 times the damage output of Scizor's Bullet Punch making it blatantly better than any priority user in the past. The banded set, which I will post here as the prime suspect of being Uber, is capable of 2HKOing most of the game, and by most I mean 90% of it (going by the percentage of Pokemon that show up in the 1vsall calc, which does not include Gen 6 Pokemon, I am aware of that.) here is a list of the Pokemon that Talonflame cannot 2hko
Spoiler:
 
In addition to it being an incredible wallbreaker, it has priority brave bird going for it. When you tack that on it turns from being low standard to being Uber in my opinion. The reason I'm opposed to this Priority Brave Bird is that it revenges almost every single set up sweeper after they've taken even a little damage from whatever it is they set up on or stealth rock damage. Priority users in the past have not revenged every set up sweeper single-handedly. Scizor, the best of them in many people's opinion couldn't revenge kill any electric type (which talonflame struggles with but still does a better job than scizor.) and couldn't revenge kill most bulky set up sweepers which talonflame is able to just because of the power difference. Some set up Pokemon Talonflame can revenge that scizor can't include: Cloyster, Dragonite, Latias, and Scizor itself. There are plenty more but I really don't want to hunt them, if you'd like to search yourself, you can check this pastebin: http://pastebin.com/MtYNw1PT , use your best judgement as to what health the Pokemon would be after setting up and what Scizor or other priority users would be able to do.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:21 am

Talonflame is obscene. Any n00b without a brain just has to get one turn of setup, either Bulk Up or Swords Dance, and they can already sweep through entire teams with no thought or effort. If you don't actually have a hard counter to this thing, you're at serious risk of being single-handedly decimated by it in several situations. It can get subs, bulk ups, or swords dances up before most non-scarf things in the game, and then Brave Bird literally everything. There is nothing anyone can do about that Brave Bird except hope to tank it, and if you're in on the switch be prepared to take another one or a Flare Blitz. It doesn't even need to be faster than anything like Volcarona does to Roost off Rocks or recoil either.

You don't even need to put that much thought into it though. As Invalid said, all you really need to do is slap a band on this thing and you've got the fastest strongest priority in the entire game.That pretty much means you can revenge anything.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:55 am

kingtrace wrote:
It is starting to look more and more like Talonflame is going to be assassinated behind closed doors, because we have two new users who have used at most their third post to try to vote it to Ubers for no reason.

I honestly don't see the point of having a discussion thread if one of the Pokemon that will be voted up doesn't get to have the discussion that usually precedes such a thing.
Luna Rosencross and Almighty Bronzong are in fact regulars. I know you know that. I don't know why you'd fuss about them voting when we encourage everyone to vote.

As for the discussion you asked for. Maybe they're not good at making arguments, so they just voted what there opinion is. Just because you wanted them to justify their vote to you doesn't mean they have to. Hell you could have explained why you thought it wasn't Uber, that's not impossible. I did it for Steel with the Megas he brought up.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:44 am

And I know that you know I had no idea who they were when I wrote the post, we even had a discussion about it.

The banded set is worth some discussion, I guess, because the raw power of the set is better than any other priority user, but while the list Invalid posted is absolutely valid evidence, it misses a few crucial things, which can't be helped as it is simply data and thus needs some real world interpreting.

Assuming your opponent has no Steel types or Rotom/Cresselia, I suppose you could just spam Brave Bird until Talonflame dies from recoil and cripple your opponent's team in the process. However, that isn't the case. The reason the list is so preciously small is that the list includes Flare Blitz, a move that Talonflame will not be spamming under most circumstances. I can switch damn near any Steel type in on Brave Bird, barring the one's that don't resist like Scizor or Lucario. Every failed Brave Bird on a banded set is another chance for your foe to get rocks up, set up other hazards or boosts, or be forced to sack Talonflame. To make Talonflame "a no thought killer", you actually have to predict when to use Flare Blitz, an irony which I'm finding hilarious considering the circumstances this has come to.

Not to mention this is a Pokemon that has, at most, three chances to do its job if not less considering the fact that SR exists. Sure, Defog is a thing now and you can run a full Talonflame support team and work the whole match to remove key threats and eliminate rocks, but again, that hardly sounds like "n00b slaps Talonflame on team Brave Bird win(*#~~~1".

And Talonflame will never, ever be sweeping whole teams unless your opponent has no idea what they're doing. There are very, very few Pokemon it can set up Bulk Ups or Swords Dances on that can do literally nothing to it. This is why set-up sets are the rarest of Talonflame's sets. On a Banded set, it will most likely die to recoil at some point, without inordinate amounts of team support, again.

I can see from the tone of this thread that not only am I one of the few people that played Gen 6 with any regularity before posting here, but one of the few that actually think threats need to be discussed before going Ubers. Apparently we simply theorymon things out of the tier, and if we think that people actually need to talk about it before making rash, nigh irreversible decisions, tough.

Talonflame is getting voted Ubers due to theorymonning and a general lack of experience among members of this community. I have just explained why once you look outside of data, Talonflame is at most getting one or maybe two kills depending on the structure of your opponent's team. If you want it to do more work than that, you DO, in fact, have to think about it. You have to build your team around it, take out it's threats, work to keep hazards down, ect.

I have no idea why having a threat that's better than previous threats by a landslide makes the threat Ubers. I suppose we should go back in time and ban Infernape, Skarmory, Blissey, Reuniclus, Keldeo, and any other Pokemon that is far better in its niche than anything that came before it. If this sounds silly, that's because it is.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:27 pm

I also don't think that Talonflame is an uber. I can't say that I've played gen 6 extensively yet, but being able to 2HKO many Pokémon doesn't make it uber. There are probably many Pokémon out there that can 2HKO a lot of Pokémon, but that doesn't make them uber.

Anyway, Talonflame having a more powerful priority than Scizor doesn't actually make it uber. Talonflme may be powerful, but its defenses are really bad (78 / 71 / 69), so many neutral attacks will severely damage it. Sure, it can try to set up, but its risking being hit in the process. It also has to worry about Stealth Rocks, as they will shorten its life as well. Finally, Talonflame and Scizor may both be used for their priority moves and both share that similarity, but they actually function differently. Scizor can actually switch into many attacks (maybe not so much in gen 6) and threaten foes with Bullet Punch, or predict and switch out of battle with stabbed U-turns; Talonflame can't really switch into many attacks at all, and even resisted attacks will still do a fair amount of damage to it.

In other words, I'm basically copying / agreeing with what Kingtrace said.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:00 pm

To Trace:

My lack of experience with Gen 6 does not disqualify me from bringing up obvious numbers. Talonflame hits way the Truck harder than any priority user in the past. That is not the entirety of Talonflame though, it also has the whole rest of its set to work with. I don't believe that priority Brave Bird is all it takes to make a Pokemon Uber, that's why the calcs I listed include Flare Blitz and U-turn. When this Pokemon isn't revenge killing almost everything, it's wall breaking as well as a wall breaker could ever need to. It does 49% damage to its top threat with U-turn (Tyranitar). This thing has no checks as a wall breaker, anything you can switch in on it can be screwed over in the process. Tyranitar can just be U-turned, and for its other main high tier checks, (Heatran and Gyarados): Heatran can set up rocks, but if it has Latias on the team, (which why wouldn't it if Heatran is basically the only thing it fears), then it just has to switch out on the first turn and then use Defog, it doesn't even require any prediction. Gyarados can't be killed by it, but the kind of Gyarados this thing is afraid of isn't a threat to most teams, you can just switch out to anything with an electric move and some bulk (Latias works), and if the Gyarados starts setting up, then Talonflame can come back in later without the -1 attack, and revenge kill it. Hippowdown doesn't carry a way of dealing with Talonflame and if you do use Stone Edge, having to run Stone Edge Hippowdon to deal with Talonflame should speak for itself. Cress is on that list, but it's both low tiered, which doesn't outright disqualify it, and it doesn't use thunderbolt ( http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/XY%20OU/488.html ), if you do want to bring Cresselia with thunderbolt into the mix, then more power to you, but you're still coming in on a minimum of 33% damage, and then all Talonflame has to do is leave because Cresselia isn't threatening especially with Thundberbolt. All of that goes to explain it is an incredible wall breaker, from there you tack on priority Brave Bird which revenges every set up sweeper than isn't named Zapdos, Raikou, or Metagross.

In regards to your last paragraph, you are just misrepresenting my position. Having that might not just make anything Uber, and I'm not saying it does. What it does make Uber is Talonflame that already has great wall breaking going for it, and that the priority goes to one of its wall breaking moves. Taking away that priority leaves it on par with other wall breakers and it is no longer Uber at that point.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:10 pm

Physicaly Defensive Gyardos is used heavily to deal with the powerful physical threats of this generation. The fact that you prefer other uses for Gyrados or that you feel that Gyrados shouldn't be forced to change around the metagame is irrelevant.

Again, we're completely skipping the part where successful use of Flare Blitz requires either foreknowledge of your opponent's team or ballsy prediction, which could cause you to succeed or fail just like any other huge threat.

Steel types all deal with the bird outside of Flare Blitz, and Flare Blitzing the traditionally high HP Pokemon is not something that Talonflame even wants to do. For example, Flare Blitz a Ferrothorn. Now you have next to no HP and are locked into your substantially less dangerous move, carrying both a much more common typing and a lack of priority.

Hippowdon could run Toxic and simply wait as Talonflame hurls huge chucks of its own HP at Hippo and takes Sandstorm damage on the side. And when you can use a very common moveset to deal with Talonflame, you know... Well, I'm not going to that, because I don't agree with the "adding Stone Edge means Talonflame is Uber" aspect of the logic. Adding Stone Edge means it's dangerous, nothing else.

By the powers of our posts combined, anybody reading this should be able to plainly see that it isn't just simply click and win with Talonflame, you actually need strategy and thought in order to make it work properly, and if you want it to be a destroyer of worlds, you also need team support.

Also, what we're talking about here is killing one or two Pokemon and losing a key team member in the process. That hardly sounds Uber.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:13 pm

oh and here:
Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tailwind

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:16 pm

That's how prediction always works trace.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:22 pm

So we're now assuming that Talonflame removes all the Steel types from the opponent's team and still some how can move forward with Brave Birding everything? And this seems reasonable? Even successful prediction, which is not incredibly likely, could easily result in a dead Talonflame.

I continue to not be able to see this Pokemon as Uber under that circumstance. Even played the best possible way, by itself it still is unlikely to take down more than one Pokemon. There are Pokemon that can do far more damage than that.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:29 pm

Also, I'm not implying your lack of experience means you can't talk about the numbers. I'm saying that it means you don't have a full grasp of how the numbers reflect in a real game.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:39 pm

I don't want the game to have a Pokemon in it that I can try to switch into with something that should be a check, but if they pick a different move, I die. In a dystopic world where they actually do predict everything, you just have to pick things to die until it eventually kills itself. That's half my problem with it, the other half is that it comes in with priority about as strong as +4 Aegislash's Shadow Sneak.

+4 Aegislash Shadow Sneak has something over 78k power
Banded Brave Bird from Talonflame has something over 77K power

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:44 pm

Are you serious? You don't want to have a game where a bad switch in prediction could kill you?

I suppose we're banning Lucario, Infernape, Keldeo, Terrakion, Tornadus, Rotom-W, and so many others, simply because if you switch in a check to the wrong move, the check dies and your team is swept?

It pays for that strength through recoil and being unable to switch moves. If Aegislash has that many boosts, your whole team is liable to be destroyed. If Talonflame comes in, one Pokemon is a more reasonable assessment.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:54 pm

kingtrace wrote:
Are you serious? You don't want to have a game where a bad switch in prediction could kill you?

I suppose we're banning Lucario, Infernape, Keldeo, Terrakion, Tornadus, Rotom-W, and so many others, simply because if you switch in a check to the wrong move, the check dies and your team is swept?

It pays for that strength through recoil and being unable to switch moves. If Aegislash has that many boosts, your whole team is liable to be destroyed. If Talonflame comes in, one Pokemon is a more reasonable assessment.
I think I've been over your list of things we have to ban complaint in about every other fucking post at this point. There are more than 1 factor here, more than 1 factor. If I say one thing, that's not my whole post. And you wanted to ban Keldeo anyway, so I don't even know what you're doing with that.

As for the second line, Aegislash has to use 2 turns of set up to get to that level while Talonflame only has to use 0 turns of set up. Getting that reasonable assessment is not fair with Talonflame, it just gets it.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:06 pm

I've had it literally up to here with this "more than one factor" shit. If you think you can hand have away every point I come up with to counter your individual points by saying "no, look at it all together" then I can basically do the same thing. I won't, though.

It doesn't matter what my opinion is on Keldeo, it, and everything else on that list, and a shit ton of things not on the list, are in the same boat. You have to pick something to die with those, too. Can you explain to me why drawing this similarity between Talonflame and other wallbreakers doesn't make sense or dismiss your point instead of simply saying "other factors"?

So at the end of the day, we have:

"Priority too strong": I went over why spamming Brave Bird is not Talonflame's best course of action and why you have to predict around Steel types and other threats.

"Can set-up": This wasn't really a point of Invalid's, but other people brought it up. It really can't do that as well as other Pokemon due to it's frailty.

"Easy n00b button": I explained why, in order to be a revenge killing/wall breaking machine, it needs team support and ample prediction. You can't simply slap it on a team and win, because killing one Pokemon by trading one of yours in is not ideal.

"Wallbreaker": It can only pick one move at a time, and no matter which move that is, you're opening yourself up to recoil, SR getting set up, or just a straight up Nas-kicking. Not to mention that other Pokemon can preform this role with MUCH better results than "one thing dies and then I do, too."

So when we look at "all the factors" together, we have a very strong priority user who can wallbreak with adequate prediction, but on the flip side you have a predictable one trick pony that is susceptible to prediction as well. It's wallbreaking is comparable to other threats and spamming Brave Bird is never practical, which forces back into the awkward place where you have to predict. Not to mention a crippling 50% SR weakness and it's frailty preventing it from doing much else besides Banded with the same efficiency. With proper team support and a well played game, you can make Talonflame into a dangerous weapon, but it requires a high level of thought that allows it to operate much like any other dangerous Pokemon.

Summing it up, you can't say Talonflame is a click to win Pokemon, and you can't very well say that it's the most dangerous threat in today's meta. Since other threats aren't going, it shouldn't go either. Plain and simple.

Did I miss any factors this time?

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:29 pm

Blue text is me.
kingtrace wrote:
I've had it literally up to here with this "more than one factor" shit. If you think you can hand have away every point I come up with to counter your individual points by saying "no, look at it all together" then I can basically do the same thing. I won't, though. I gave you the factors, and you're treating it like it only has one of the two when you do that. Those other Pokemon you listed do not have anywhere near the priority Talonflame does. Most just don't have priority. In listing them and saying that they are in the same boat as Talonflame you are ignoring half of Talonflame, actually, you're ignoring the half I want to ban. So those arguments will apply if people want to ban Talonflame outright when it doesn't have Gale Wings anymore. But that's not even close to what's going on, and there's no way you made that list without realizing that they aren't the same thing as Talonflame at all. So the way I see it, you're just lying at this point, especially since I've pointed out why Talonflame isn't like them several times.

It doesn't matter what my opinion is on Keldeo, it, and everything else on that list, and a shit ton of things not on the list, are in the same boat. You have to pick something to die with those, too. Can you explain to me why drawing this similarity between Talonflame and other wallbreakers doesn't make sense or dismiss your point instead of simply saying "other factors"? I gave you the factors, and you're treating it like it only has one of the two when you do that. Those other Pokemon you listed do not have anywhere near the priority Talonflame does. Most just don't have priority. In listing them and saying that they are in the same boat as Talonflame you are ignoring half of Talonflame, actually, you're ignoring the half I want to ban. So those arguments will apply if people want to ban Talonflame outright when it doesn't have Gale Wings anymore. But that's not even close to what's going on, and there's no way you made that list without realizing that they aren't the same thing as Talonflame at all. So the way I see it, you're just lying at this point, especially since I've pointed out why Talonflame isn't like them several times.

So at the end of the day, we have:

"Priority too strong": I went over why spamming Brave Bird is not Talonflame's best course of action and why you have to predict around Steel types and other threats. You have previously misrepresented my position, but now you are literally putting words in my mouth. This is not my dialect, and you are using it to make me look stupid because you can't come up with anything better.

"Can set-up": This wasn't really a point of Invalid's, but other people brought it up. It really can't do that as well as other Pokemon due to it's frailty. While it wasn't my point, I'm getting frustrated with its dismissal. Pretty much any wall is set up fodder for a Sub SD set. Chansey can at most break its sub a few times, then toxic it on the turn it swords dances, and at least mispredict, giving it an SD without a status thanks to the substitutes protection. Ferrothorn can just get set up on all day.

"Easy n00b button": I explained why, in order to be a revenge killing/wall breaking machine, it needs team support and ample prediction. You can't simply slap it on a team and win, because killing one Pokemon by trading one of yours in is not ideal. Actually, as a revenge killer, it is the team support for the rest of your team. To revenge kill, all that is required is that there's something for it to revenge kill.

"Wallbreaker": It can only pick one move at a time, and no matter which move that is, you're opening yourself up to recoil, SR getting set up, or just a straight up Nas-kicking. Not to mention that other Pokemon can preform this role with MUCH better results than "one thing dies and then I do, too." Except you're killing something before recoil kills you, so you're still alive to do more after that, while they've thrown something away in the wake of Talonflame. Even killing Hippowdon leaves it with 110 HP, we went over the math for that in a call. So taking more than that is unlikely, even ferro will do less because 1 turn of Iron Barbs is the same as 2 turns of Sandstorm and Ferrothorn has less HP.

So when we look at "all the factors" together, we have a very strong priority user who can wallbreak with adequate prediction, but on the flip side you have a predictable one trick pony that is susceptible to prediction as well. It's wallbreaking is comparable to other threats and spamming Brave Bird is never practical, which forces back into the awkward place where you have to predict. Not to mention a crippling 50% SR weakness and it's frailty preventing it from doing much else besides Banded with the same efficiency. With proper team support and a well played game, you can make Talonflame into a dangerous weapon, but it requires a high level of thought that allows it to operate much like any other dangerous Pokemon.

Summing it up, you can't say Talonflame is a click to win Pokemon, and you can't very well say that it's the most dangerous threat in today's meta. Since other threats aren't going, it shouldn't go either. Plain and simple. Talonflame is not click to win, it is way better than other threats and is too good to be allowed as it is. Other threats are going, so I don't know where you're getting this line of reasoning, and even if they weren't, that would have nothing to do with whether Talonflame was broken, that would be an oversight towards other Pokemon.

Did I miss any factors this time?

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:49 pm

Trace, you're pigeonholing people who disagree as not experienced. I personally HAVE been swept by a Talonflame that came in on my chansey. On my switch, it was able to setup and plow through everything. If you have essentially any wall out ever Talonflame gets free setup. And if it can manage to KO everything that CAN threaten it, it can roost off the recoil, which is what I have EXPERIENCED multiple times. Not everyone wants to run rocks, some of us like myself like using defog. As I said, if you don't actually teambuild against this thing it can easily Truck you over. This is not theorymonning, this is what I myself have faced.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:26 pm

Invalid, you continuously assert that it's powerful priority and wall breaking power are the reasons that it's Uber. I personally do not care what language you want to use, whether it's "Using powerful 120 BP Flying type Priority to decimate other teams and taking care of any threat with Flare Blitz or U-Turn" or "Spam Brave Bird until everything is dead unless you have to use Flare Blitz, then do that." The idea is exactly the same and you continue to fail to explain to me how this isn't your point.

We've gone around the bend with this thing, first it was uber because it's a revenge killer, then it was Uber because it's a wallbreaker, now it's back to being Uber because it's a revenge killer. To be frank, I find this to be a very, very sad line of reasoning just based on how revenge killing works.

Pokemon A sets up/kills something

Talonflame comes in.

Talonflame may either kill A, or die to A, but at the end of the day A still potentially got a kill while you had to potentially sac a Mon and/or Talonflame in order to kill it. That will never, ever be broken no matter how you slice it.

I still stand by one Pokemon dying NOT making an Uber, and if you want to kill much more than one, you need team support. Talonflame is a revenge killer that needs help.

By other threats, I continue to mean that anything else in Talonflame's shoes should go up. We have to go back to the reasoning that is concerned with its wall breaking potential. Take a threat like Terrakion, for example. A Banded Terrakion can kill the vast majority of its potential switches by predicting and picking the right move, but no one is sitting here and wanting to move Terrakion out of the game. The same should be true of Talonflame but isn't, and you continue to hand wave, belittle, or dodge the point in order to dodge the question, save for one answer that isn't very convincing: Why isn't every good wallbreaker Ubers?

You say it's the priority but that is frankly silly. Other Wallbreakers are revenge killed because they aren't fast enough or can be taken out by priority (Extremespeed can handle Talonflame, but whatever), Talonflame can be revenged by something bulky enough to take the move and kill it back.

So it can use priority and wallbreak, but my point continues to be that at some point it HAS to stop spamming Brave Bird and HAS to start predicting. This is liable to fail miserably or succeed, and that depends on the prediction skills of both users. It CANNOT wall break and spam priority at the same time as long as your opponent has a good Steel type.

It isn't the best wall breaker, and it can be argued either way that it is or isn't the best priority user. A Pokemon that is a mix of both is a new niche, and I'm apparently expected to sit here and pretend it can switch moves while holding a choice band and that the recoil will never catch up with it.

Frost, your Chansey is a Chansey. It will, on occasion, get set up on as it does, on occasion, fail to be able to damage sweepers. You should've stayed in and Seismic Tossed or Toxic'd, depending on the Talonflame set. Also, not running rocks is your personal choice, a choice that is still ill advised in a land of Focus Sashers and powerful threats like Mega-Zard lurking. Also, if you're running Defog, I'd recommend running literally anything with a sash, which will allow it to revenge kill Talonflame.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:43 pm

I'm just going to stop reading your posts as soon as your lie from now on.

"We've gone around the bend with this thing, first it was uber because it's a revenge killer, then it was Uber because it's a wallbreaker, now it's back to being Uber because it's a revenge killer."

It's not "back to being a Uber because it's a revenge killer" it's been Uber for both reasons the whole time.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:01 pm

Kingtrace and Invalid...

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:12 pm

Whatever, Invalid.

You can go ahead and ban whatever you want, you obviously aren't interested in any opinions that aren't your own.

You may as well just delete the voting section and the discussion section and just do this behind closed doors, as apparently if you don't like the direction a discussion is going, someone is "lying" to you.

I honestly would consider deleting my vote and just calling it quits on this whole thing as I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack and pass out and not having to think about you treating me like some sort of enemy would sure be nice, but I honestly am not about to let Breakdown march into an uneducated tiering decision based on blatant misdirection (intentional or otherwise), pointed insults, and your interpretation of what the facts of the matter of my position is.

I wonder which part of this post was lying. Doesn't really matter.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:31 pm

So since it isn't not uber in your opinion, I'd like a list of counters to Talonflame. I've already been over Tyranitar which takes a minimum of 49% from U-turn. I've already explained how Cresselia isn't a counter because it doesn't carry Thunderbolt, and if it did, it would be unable to be useful at all. I've already been over how Heatran doesn't threaten Latias which is the obvious support for it (Latias can come in on the stealth rock, and then you have no way of stopping it from using defog, in other words it is unable to set up rocks which are its only way of threatening Talonflame), and either way takes at least 28% from Brave Bird. I've even been over how Rest Talk Gyarados is not threatening, and thus wouldn't bother your opponent if you had it. Basically I want to know if I'm running Talonflame, what am I going to be scared of when my opponent brings it out. If you list a counter, explain what it does and how it's a good counter.

Also, focus sash counters every sweeper (Mega Kangaskhan excluded). So if we're counting that, everything's counter list goes through the roof, that's why I do not count focus sash in a counter list.

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PostSubject: Re: November 2013 Tier Voting Discussion    Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:36 pm

kingtrace wrote:
You may as well just delete the voting section and the discussion section and just do this behind closed doors, as apparently if you don't like the direction a discussion is going, someone is "lying" to you.
I gave you the lie, you can think about it if you don't see it, but look at the last post I made before you said that. And tell me where I said the problem was only being a revenge killer. If not then you lied, that's what a lie is big shot, when you say something that isn't true. But go ahead and tell yourself the story is that I call people liars when they disagree with me, because I told you what the lie was.

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