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 September 2013 Tier Discussion

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PostSubject: September 2013 Tier Discussion   Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:42 pm

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of September 2013. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

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PostSubject: Re: September 2013 Tier Discussion   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:59 am

Comparing Cloyster to Carracosta
Please don't skim this article.


Whenever I compare two Pokemon there is a great deal of math knowledge about this game that I use that most people either don't think about or are unaware of. I use these techniques because I know they work, and I think about everything in terms of math anyway. I'm not trying to brag about this at all as it's all very simple and should make sense to whoever sees it. So please just follow along, and if you notice anything doesn't make sense, let me know.

Nullifying the confusion of abilities: The abilities Swift Swim and Skill Link are difficult to compare, so for the ease of this comparison, I pretend they don't exist. So I set both of their abilities to Illuminate in my mind, and correct their stats to match what they'd be with the bonus their ability gives them. Carracosta in Rain, with Swift Swim factored in would have the rest of its stats the same and 114 in Speed. For Cloyster this calculation isn't so simple, since it's effectively modifying the base power of only certain moves, I'll be using a different attack stat for each attack by comparing it's power to the standard attack of the Type the attack is (Icicle Spear 125 to Icicicle Crash 85, and Rock Blast 125 to Stone Edge 100). When using Icicle Spear, we would treat Cloyster's attack as 162, for Rock Blast we would treat it as 130, and for Razor Shell, no modifier is needed because the ability doesn't affect it, so its attack is treated as 95.

CloysterCarracosta
HP 50HP 74
Atk 162/130/95Atk 108
Def 180Def 133
SpA 85SpA 83
SpD 45SpD 65
Spe 70Spe 114
Keep in mind while at this stage the stats appear comparable, Carracosta depends on rain to be able to use those stats while Cloyster does not. If this is enough for you to understand the differences then good, but don't worry, this is the part where I just skip most of the steps and show you the final results of the calc. Later everything will be clear when I do it a different way.

Attack Force: This bit is more concrete and easier to see for yourself. All you do is multiply the attack's base power, the Pokemon's attack stat, and any other multiplier, and you get the Attack force of a move. I will be ignoring the shell smash boost in these calcs because each Pokemon is expected to have one.

Carracosta's Moves:
Waterfall: 346(attack)*80(base power)*1.5(STAB)*1.5(Rain)=62280
Stone Edge: 346(attack*100(base power)*1.5(STAB)=51900
Earthquake: 346(attack)*100(base power)=34600

Cloyster's Moves:
Icicle Spear: 317(attack)*125(base power)*1.5(STAB)=59437.5(we don't round for these numbers)
Razor Shell: 317(attack)*75(base power)*1.5(STAB)*1.5(Rain)=53493.75
Rock Blast: 317(attack)*125(base power)= 39625

As you can see by the similar numbers. Cloyers and Carracosta have similar attack force spreads, with Cloyster's attack forces being closer together than Carracosta which I see as it being more consistent in it's STAB moves' power and just plain having more attack force in its coverage move. This compounded with the fact that Cloyster doesn't rely on weather to function cements it as a better Pokemon that Carracosta.



What this comparison does not definitively prove is that Carracosta should be Standard with Drizzle Swim, the only intention was to demonstrate that it is not as good as Cloyster. Also I'm aware that Carracosta has higher relative speed than Cloyster, but I don't consider it relevant because there are few Pokemon that are actually relevant at the base 70 +2 speed tier.

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PostSubject: Re: September 2013 Tier Discussion   Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:11 am

Also I would like to note that the attack force of CB Floatzel's Waterfall in rain is 91530.

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PostSubject: Re: September 2013 Tier Discussion   Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Alright, after that very true post about Carracosta, I have stumbled onto some new evidence. I ran a 1vsAll calc for +2 Carracosta in rain with the following set:
Carracosta @ White Herb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

It has 2 counters, total. Quagsire and Toxicroak. Also just for laughs, if you give it a life orb it has no counters.

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