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 June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion

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PostSubject: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:14 pm

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of June 2013. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

The delay of the vote was due to server down time.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:30 pm

i'd like to bring up Mevenetalno to CAP Ubers and En-Ghoul to CAP Ubers

also the idea of having a lower tier to CAP Standard just like there is a Creative tier there should be a CAP Creative tier where certain caps can be tested in lower tiers such as Creative when they fail to be effective in Standard or Ubers.

Also i'd like to still know how people feel about the Kyurem-B to Standard discussion as it seemed pretty close last month and i'd like to hear others opinions on at least testing it in the Standard metagame.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:36 pm

Current examples i can think of for CAP Creative would be Wineshi and Luterra possibly because they really do fail at their role in Standard and CAPs such as Inflect are only good due to their ability, if Inflect did not have Illusion it could not fulfill it's role which questions me whether it should really be standard?
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:13 pm

I'm also going to nominate Mevenetalno for Ubers. I'm not quite sold on En-Ghoul for Ubers though. Also, is Bulk Up on En-Ghoul going to be replaced with Swords Dance in the near future, or not? I know that that was discussed a while back.

It also would be interesting to have a CAP creative tier. That brings up the question though: Will CAP creative not allow any standard Pokémon (both normal and CAP Pokémon), or will CAP creative only not allow standard CAP Pokémon?

Inflect is a good support Pokémon, and this is further enhanced by Illusion. We could delve into a game of 'what-ifs' , but the fact is that Inflect is good solely because of its ability, and it has some decent moves as well.

Finally, you all know how I feel about Kyurem-B moving up to standard. I've voted for it twice, and twice has it been denied the move to standard.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:19 pm

A consensus was never reached for Swords Dance because you all started talking about other stuff suddenly.

Also I've said it in the best, I'm willing to be flexible on En-Ghoul. I don't want it in ubers, so I can change it if need be. However I don't think it's fair for it to be nommed when people haven't even reached a decision on what they actually want.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:54 pm

I took the discussion topic changing suddenly despite me bringing it back to en-ghoul twice to mean that everyone considered it balanced. If you don't, then fucking continue where we left off. What about any of the things I said was wrong? And what about En-Ghoul is any more Uber than other Standard Pokemon?

tbh this En-Ghoul circle jerk behind everyone's back bull shit is getting old. Quit being pussies and enter the actual debate.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:16 pm

Invalid wrote:
My basic stance on En-Ghoul is that it never swept anyone who didn't make the mistake of letting it set up. These are just the incomplete lists I was able to come up with in my hung-over state.

Counters:
Skarmory, Donphan, Quagsire, Staraptor, Tentacruel, Hippowdon, Taunt Gyarados

Checks:
Ditto, Tornadus

Keep in mind that if the CAP causes some changes to the metagame, that's beneficial to the project. Being able to set up on several scald users in the current metagame is a good thing. That doesn't mean every scald user is set up bait either, and none of them would be if they'd actually invest. If your team has something that is set up bait for En-Ghoul, you don't just have to add a counter to your team, you could instead just change your set a little so it's no longer set up bait. There isn't a need for Counters at all if En-Ghoul isn't allowed an opportunity to set up with no consequences.


Example: Typically, Cresselia and Latias are set up fodder for En-Ghoul, Give them STAB Psychic and En-Ghoul no longer has a chance to set up.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:42 pm

steel dragons wrote:
I'm also going to nominate Mevenetalno for Ubers. I'm not quite sold on En-Ghoul for Ubers though. Also, is Bulk Up on En-Ghoul going to be replaced with Swords Dance in the near future, or not? I know that that was discussed a while back.

It also would be interesting to have a CAP creative tier. That brings up the question though: Will CAP creative not allow any standard Pokémon (both normal and CAP Pokémon), or will CAP creative only not allow standard CAP Pokémon?

Inflect is a good support Pokémon, and this is further enhanced by Illusion. We could delve into a game of 'what-ifs' , but the fact is that Inflect is good solely because of its ability, and it has some decent moves as well.

Finally, you all know how I feel about Kyurem-B moving up to standard. I've voted for it twice, and twice has it been denied the move to standard.


By CAP Creative i mean we have CAP pokemon that are in the Creative tier along with the regular Creative pokemon, this way both CAP Standard and Standard pokes are banned from this and we're using CAPs in a different tier in which the threats are different now and perhaps we can see how they impact that tier of the metagame.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:03 am

Invalid wrote:
I took the discussion topic changing suddenly despite me bringing it back to en-ghoul twice to mean that everyone considered it balanced. If you don't, then fucking continue where we left off. What about any of the things I said was wrong? And what about En-Ghoul is any more Uber than other Standard Pokemon?

tbh this En-Ghoul circle jerk behind everyone's back bull shit is getting old. Quit being pussies and enter the actual debate.

Personally, I'm really freaking sick of this. From day 1 I wrote in En-Ghoul's submission that I would do my best to be flexible. And for a while everything was fine because of Goulia essentially ruining this CAP. But then everything goes to hell and Invalid and I start working on solutions. Meanwhile people are posting about it weeks early, making fucking counter caps (yes steel, I do in fact remember you saying you were going to make Thramo specifically for that purpose in main. I was there and Invalid is my witness), and bitching about things not being done fast enough. When I finally get a change completed, it's still not enough apparently. Yet no one is discussing and citing actual reasons anymore. As someone who has never touched this spread or anything like it before, I have literally no idea what's wrong with it or what to do about it. And you people aren't helping by dodging the issue at every turn and being two faced. Someone will say this on the forums and then b1tch in main. Other people will tell me they're fine with it on the server and then make posts. I don't even have a clear idea of what's wrong with this CAP, or if anything is even wrong in the first place. No one is making up their minds, and yet it's still possibly up for nomination. Newsflash, I can't really do anything in these circumstances.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:46 am

If there's really nothing you can do to fix the CAP then obviously it is just not meant for the metagame, tbh i don't see much really countering it that doesn't run prankster will o wisp's or roar/whirlwind. I haven't really had much trouble with it while running sableye against it but once sableye is gone it usually sweeps me with that ghost/fight stab combo which is basically perfect coverage with Goulia gone now. I don't see much Skarmory run in CAP here because it just doesn't fair well against most of the other CAPs. Quagsire could help because of Unaware but with the majority of CAPs being Grass types it could be a problem for your team too. Same goes for Donphan. I think the best chance is either as i said Sableye or a Roar/Sleep Talk/Rest Defensive Gyarados with Intimidate. Even trying to replace Bulk Up with Swords Dance would just make it more offensive and its good typing coupled with its 90/80/80 defenses just gives it natural bulk really. And anything that does hit it for super effective damage it takes out with its powerful stab. Like Espeon, Alakazam, Gengar, even other En-Ghoul. Like i said if you really think there's nothing you can do to save it then its better to just stop bitching about it going to Ubers and accept the fact that it is Ubers material...
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:50 am

@Frost: Yes, I remember saying something like that. However, Priority Transform will only work in the right circumstances. Sure, it can be a lifesaver, but it isn't the best choice to simply use Transform every time that Thramo is on the field. However, let me clarify: I don't make CAPs solely for the purpose of countering specific Pokémon; I try to make Pokémon that explore newer concepts, such as Goulia and Halloof. Thramo was made for the purpose of mainly using priority Transform, as that has not been done before that point.

Also, for En-Ghoul, I've decided that I want it to remain in standard at its current state. As I've concluded from playtesting it as well as a certain post from Invalid, I've swept with it when I have set up a few Bulk Up boosts. If I try using it with no boosts, it usually won't perform that great; it needs the boosts to effectively work well. Of course I'm going to set up when you have a weak Pokémon or Pokémon locked into a resisted move; that's just standard procedure when battling someone. I don't see En-Ghoul as 'Uber-level material' right now, as nearly anything can set up boosts and sweep; its just that En-Ghoul is a top-level threat.

If Bulk-Up is changed out for Swords Dance, it won't really change my strategy with En-Ghoul that much. I run a offensively-based set (max attack and speed), so Swords Dance would be even more helpful to me than Bulk-Up most of the time.

Also, Frost, I think that your change on En-Ghoul (concerning Drain Punch with Shadow Sneak) did work to balance En-Ghoul. En-Ghoul can only make so many subs now because of the lack of a recovery move; which in turn makes it more balanced.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:55 am

SupahGassy wrote:
tbh i don't see much really countering
Counters:
Skarmory, Donphan, Quagsire, Staraptor, Tentacruel, Hippowdon, Taunt Gyarados

Checks:
Ditto, Tornadus, Night Shade Sableye


Frost's post was not him saying that there was nothing he could do to weaken it, he was asking the people who consider it broken for suggestions about what to change. There are tons of things he could do that would weaken it, but he has no clue what will appease them.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:01 am

SupahGassy wrote:
I don't see much Skarmory run in CAP here because it just doesn't fair well against most of the other CAPs. Quagsire could help because of Unaware but with the majority of CAPs being Grass types it could be a problem for your team too. Same goes for Donphan. I think the best chance is either as i said Sableye or a Roar/Sleep Talk/Rest Defensive Gyarados with Intimidate.

That's ignoring it? I mean same goes for Hippowdon, CAP is just full of too many grass types now and tbh t-tar is just more popular in usage than hippowdown, lets face it. Like i said, Intimidate Gyara and Sableye tend to do it the best.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:11 am

Yeah, it is ignoring it, since you just came up with a few of them on your own and never acknowledged the precompiled list. The existence of grass types do not change the fact that Quagsire and Hippowdown are counters. The point of listing the checks and counters is to show that if you have trouble with En-Ghoul it's because your team is unprepared and you have several options to become prepared for it with. Also I'll be sure to add Sableye to the list since if it actually runs night shade and is played flawlessly it can deal with it effectively.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:13 am

The other point of the post is that people need to communicate. I'm guilty of not being direct on the issue myself as well.

If legitimate arguments are brought forth and the majority of people aren't happy with my CAP, I want to fix it. I do not want it to be that CAP that everyone can't stand, and I certainly don't want it banned. So I'm fine with people having issues with En-Ghoul. I don't want people to think I'm going to rampage on them for it. But when people are indirect, including myself, things can turn ugly; which I don't think anyone wants.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:14 am

i'm saying a good player doesn't just let himself be walled by something, they take it out, my best experience with dealing with it is as i said, prankster will o wisp's. also if mevenetalno doesn't go to ubers (which i believe it might as well) it also sets up all over En-Ghoul and walls it.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:39 am

SupahGassy wrote:
i'm saying a good player doesn't just let himself be walled by something, they take it out, my best experience with dealing with it is as i said, prankster will o wisp's. also if mevenetalno doesn't go to ubers (which i believe it might as well) it also sets up all over En-Ghoul and walls it.

Sorry, but that statement is false, at least with the correct moves. En-Ghoul has access to Storm Throw, which always does critical hits. Critical hits go through defense boosts, so Mevenetalno can't really do much to En-ghoul in that case, as Cosmic Power will be useless if En-Ghoul has Storm Throw.
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:31 am

There's no grass type that traps quag or hippowdon in. this whole "good player" business is completely outside the confines of a tier discussion since a hippowdown doesn't stay in on a grass type either. Forcing the switch is the main point of using them as counters.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:34 am

I once suggested Meditate over Swords Dance/Bulk Up

But I was ignored xD

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:37 am

Btw, Luterra is meant for Creative?Dafuq

People told me it was balanced, now it's weak?Laughing

It still has BST to waste on bulkyness if needed so.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:22 am

@Diogo: I wouldn't mind if you raise its defenses to 90 each though. Luterra suffers from being fairly weak defensively, and also having your stabs not hit a decenty-sized range of Pokémon well (basically flying Pokémon with a resistance to Fighting can cause Luterra problems)

Also, I'm going to nominate Krush for Ubers as well, since it can basically do many of the things that Mevenetalno can do.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:18 pm

Seeing as it has meditate, honestly, it's not as much of a threat as other Tech users who either have Swords or 130 Atk base.

It also can't be banded, seeing as it would basically be super-easily walled and unless it manages to Smackdown Gengar before getting hit, it's dead lol

So I'd bet more on a higher def tech user who's bulkyness allows it to life through some hit to set meditate up.

I also have another set in mind which I might try afterwards. I did think of upping more of his speed at one point, but I thought it'd be an overkill

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:09 pm

The thing with Luterra is though is it's typing which its weak to a lot of common moves in standard, like Surf, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, grass moves, psychic types etc. And with its low speed its hard for it to really hit anything hard before its taken out by something else, Espeon for example will easily destroy it before it gets anything but a mach punch off, even Inflect sets up spikes and glare all over it. Things such as gastrodon, quagsire and politoed even threaten the thing, tbh i think its a well balanced pokemon it would just do better in the Creative tier than Standard imo. and Wineshi it's just hard to really find a good working set for it that works without it being easily KO'd... I'm not saying its a bad thing that they go to Creative, i'm just saying it'll be interesting to see how they fair in that tier...
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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:57 pm

Lol, you're putting up Luterra against an Espeon?Neutral

Breloom can't fair well against Espeon either, see anything in common between those 2?

You have to see the pokémon in it's best situation, not against it's counters LOL

Luterra can't kill a gengar unless it hits with Smackdown on entry lol, so let's say that it should go down because it can't beat Gengar?

You have to see what it can or can't do, and that's what I've been doing, looking for a working set.

Techniloom works because it's strong, has acess to Spore, Swords Dance and Sub.
Scizor has acess to Bullet Punch, good typing and U-Turn, Bug Bite, Swords Dance, etc...

Luterra has a weaker typing, acess to Mach Punch, Extremespeed and Meditate.

+ has low defs

The things it's supposed to be a threat to (Ice, Rock, Electric, Poison, Steel, Dark, Normal) are not being taken into account here, you are only looking at his weakness.

The problem here is, an Ice type with Ice Shard(Weavile or Mamoswine for example) may be able to outspeed and kill him.

But you don't need to actually run meditate from what I've seen lately.

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PostSubject: Re: June 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:42 pm

Meditate only raises your attack +1 where as Loom and Scizor get +2 from swords dance, and i'm saying like a lot of things counter it in Standard, the pokemon you're really looking for it to beat out would be in Creative imo. Like i said, not a bad thing. IT'S NOT A BAD THING THAT IT GOES DOWN TO CREATIVE idk how many times i have to say that... you guys get so attached to your CAPs its like someone says for it to move tiers and you start crying....

like i'm sorry that i believe it would work better in another tier but that's just my opinion. Luterra really does shit in Standard, why not try it in Creative? you can still use it in Standard too just it could be tested down in a lower tier to see if it is more dominant or not there.
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