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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Mon May 27, 2013 7:56 pm

@Kingtrace: At its current state, En-ghoul is an uber, I strongly believe.

If it did gain swords dance and lose bulk up, it would definitely be a different kind of threat. It could still set up on weaker special attackers though. You would just trade in the ability to eventually take on physical attackers with the ability to boost your attack really high really fast. Shadow Sneak would be a must, then something like Storm Throw would probably round off that set.

I mean, En-Ghoul obviously wouldn't be as defensive as it was before. We might see more offensive sets if Bulk Up is removed, but I don't see En-ghoul changing that much. I couldn't say for sure if En-Ghoul would be uber material without Bulk up; I would then just 'wait and see' before making my final decision.

@Diogo: As Kingtrace said, you need to post your entire CAP before we can really say anything about Luterra. You can say if you are deciding between certain abilities or moves, just post all of it first.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 1:25 am

My basic stance on En-Ghoul is that it never swept anyone who didn't make the mistake of letting it set up. These are just the incomplete lists I was able to come up with in my hung-over state.

Counters:
Skarmory, Donphan, Quagsire, Staraptor, Tentacruel, Hippowdon, Taunt Gyarados

Checks:
Ditto, Tornadus

Keep in mind that if the CAP causes some changes to the metagame, that's beneficial to the project. Being able to set up on several scald users in the current metagame is a good thing. That doesn't mean every scald user is set up bait either, and none of them would be if they'd actually invest. If your team has something that is set up bait for En-Ghoul, you don't just have to add a counter to your team, you could instead just change your set a little so it's no longer set up bait. There isn't a need for Counters at all if En-Ghoul isn't allowed an opportunity to set up with no consequences.


Example: Typically, Cresselia and Latias are set up fodder for En-Ghoul, Give them STAB Psychic and En-Ghoul no longer has a chance to set up.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 5:16 am

Wait wait, what holes?Neutral

I think i've given enough info about each choice, I really don't see what's missing. The BST and Atk are in the spoiler saying which of each will be with those abilitys, so if you could point out what's missing, i'd be thankful

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 9:24 am

diogofrp wrote:
Wait wait, what holes?Neutral

I think i've given enough info about each choice, I really don't see what's missing. The BST and Atk are in the spoiler saying which of each will be with those abilitys, so if you could point out what's missing, i'd be thankful

Ok, I guess I didn't see that the first time I looked at it.

Anyway, I wouldn't have a problem with giving Luterra Technician; I don't think it would be broken or anything like that. You could probably even raise some of Luterra's other stats besides attack slightly as well. Just don't raise Luterra's other stats too much though.
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 10:05 am

Technician affects the following moves:

Rapid Spin
Quick Attack
Mach Punch
Circle Throw
Storm Throw
Low Sweep
Bulldoze
AncientPower

Now, it's not a breloom with Bullet Seed, or an Ambipom with Fake Out, but I think it's "Balanced", somehow. If no one has anything to point out of bad in it then I can declare it the first non-broken CAP I suceed in making xD

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 10:25 am

I don't see anything wrong with it. It can't hit everything hard (for example, some flying Pokémon can give it trouble), so I think that it could be implemented now in its current state. Also, with Technician, only around half of those moves that you listed would actually be used, so that ability wouldn't be broken at all.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 10:54 am

Most stuff can basically block it unless someone is stupid enough to let it spam meditates, which I highly doubt anyone besides myself would do

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 11:34 am

Walls that can work on it: Gliscor, Forretress, Skarmory, (Landorus-T?), Dusclops, Bronzong, Mevenetalno, Donphan, (Amoonguss - Phy set)?, (Bulky Rotom-Mow)?. Gastrodon.

I'm only naming stuff that can stand it well imo.

To counter it, you just need something faster that isn't really that "weak".

Skarm can counter it because of high phy resist and then eat it's Nas with BBird, most Rotoms can take any of it's priority hits if he hasn't undergone Meditate yet and 4 out of his 6 forms are super-effective against it, I have to calculate that later though, Gengar can kill it without getting hit thanks to immunity against prioritys and acess to his Psychic, Bulky Gastrodon can eat it's Nas with Scald and stall him for a burn unless he brings Toxic for Gastro, Latios and Latias can Psyshock it to hell, and idk about Latios, but I think Latias can go through his Extremespeed 2x at least, Weavile can Ice Shard it even though i'm not sure it'll 1HKO, Mamo can do that same, but there's a speed tie and then it's all up to luck.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 1:29 pm

Took out AncientPower because it's special :/

Now I need to choose a replacement.

My ideas: Rock Tomb, Rock Blast, Smack Down(Problem is it would basically fck any levitate/flying counter/wall/check for it) or Rock Throw.

Problem with Smack Down, is mentioned above.
Problem with Rock Blast, is it would be much like a non-stab Bullet Seed from Breloom, and we all know Rock has better coverage than Grass.

The others, I don't see any problem.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 1:45 pm

Glad to see Ancient Power coming off it, I don't think smack down would be broken, it would still require you to hit the flying/levitating Pokemon twice in order to kill it, and there isn't a really good Smack Down user yet. Tbh I doubt this will even be that terrific with Smack Down, but I'd prefer for it to get it. I'd say the problem with Rock Blast is more that it makes no sense, I see this thing as a calculated attacker, and Rock Blast is more like going wild with some rocks. Everything else fits great flavor wise, also, you could consider Stone Edge, not everything about it has to be about Technician.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 1:55 pm

I don't think that Smack Down is as big of an issue that you potray it to be. Sure, it does nullify the opposing foes' flying abilities, but two factors are in play here. One, Luterra needs to outspeed the various foes in order for it to be effective, and two, Luterra needs to withstand a hit before actually 'countering' the foes with Earthquake. Because of Luterra's somewhat average defenses and speed, I don't see Smack Down being much of an issue.

My vote is for Smack Down, s it would become Luterra's best Rock-typed attack (75 power with Technician, and 100% accuracy)

EDIT: Invalid basically summed up what I said here, we must have posted at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 2:10 pm

Okay, Smack Down it is.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Tue May 28, 2013 6:22 pm

My Responses are in Blue, also in case color blind people struggle to find my text, I'll make it bold.
steel dragons wrote:
Basically, En-ghoul is like a better Scizor in many ways. The only difference in power between En-Ghoul's Shadow Sneak and Scizor's Bullet Punch is in comparing En-Ghoul's base 125 attack to Scizor's 130 attack. You're correct, En-Ghoul does have lower Attack than Scizor, you got me. Also, En-Ghoul arguably gets better coverage than Scizor does with just two moves (a ghost move and a fighting move). So we're talking about how it does Scizor's job better here, right? Scizor's job is to be banded, if this thing is banded Perfect coverage means nothing since it has to lock in. Enghoul also is overall more bulky than Scizor (Scizor's 70 / 100 / 80 stats compared to En-Ghoul's 90 / 80 / 80 stats). The marginally higher bulk isn't really an issue, the reason En-Ghoul is bulkier is because En-Ghoul is invested in bulk, otherwise, it's paper. Finally, En-Ghoul has that high base 110 speed, which means that En-Ghoul will usually have the speed-edge against many Pokémon, even if it is un-boosted. I'm assuming you mean uninvested, so now we're talking about the set in question, bulky bulk up. The higher base speed has very little bearing compared to scizor thanks to the nature of speed tiers. Pokemon are either pretty slow, or pretty fast. Uninvested En-Ghoul is in that wasteland between pretty slow and pretty fast, the only Pokemon it becomes faster than, compared to scizor are things you should never try to set up on anyway (uninvested Skarmory and Tentacruel for example)

Now, lets look at some other facts: Okay Dwight, fill us in on some facts.

En-Ghoul's weaknesses are Ghost, Psychic, and Flying. Ghost and Psychic moves usually are only seen on Ghost and Psychic Pokémon. Most of those Ghost and Psychic Pokémon are taken out by Shadow Sneak after a Bulk-Up boost, as most of those Pokémon don't have the highest physical defense. For example, Alakazam, Gengar, Latios, and Starmie (all Pokémon that speed-tie or outspeed En-Ghoul) all really can't take on En-Ghoul. Once En-Ghoul gets a bulk up boost, they are pretty much dead in the water. Now, there are other Psychic and Ghost Pokémon that do actually have some defense. However, many of them still have trouble with En-Ghoul: So you've provided a list of things that aren't counters. These things still aren't set up bait for En-Ghoul, and if we're talking about the bulky bulk up set, you don't need 110 or higher speed to outspeed it. Cresselia and Deoxys-D outspeed it fine, you must be using a pretty loose definition of trouble.

Also, Shadow Sneak is resisted by three types: Dark, Normal, and Steel. Guess which tpe hits all of those types for super-effective damage? You guess it; Fighting moves, which En-Ghoul gets stab on, hits all of those types for super-effective damage. In addition, ghost moves hit the types that resist Fighting moves for neutral damage at worst. Yes, we know what perfect coverage is, it's not a new concept, 4 CAPs so far can easily achieve it: Goulia, En-Ghoul, Rockug, and Occrusher.

Basically, En-Ghoul has many things going for it. The main thing though is that En-Ghoul gets stab on two types of moves that happen to compliment each other very well. Also, it helps that it has strong priority, which enable it to deal with many Pokémon that can threaten En-Ghoul. In many ways, En-Ghoul is better than Scizor, Scizor being one of the best priority users in the game. Okay, summarize, you've really sealed the deal at this point.

I think that I will also nominate En-Ghoul for ubers as well. I think you shouldn't, or you should at least participate in the discussion long enough to make a breakthrough that would justify an opinion.

Quote :
So, what if Swords Dance replaced Bulk Up?

I don't think it will change that much. En-Ghoul will become a different kind of threat though; it would be more offensively based. It would just mean that it could get to +2 attack easily and have really strong priority. It wouldn't be impossible to deal with, but it would still be hard. I guess swords dance makes a bulky set less usable, I'm scared of it, but I'd be willing to test it out if En-Ghoul was actually proven broken as is.


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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 12:13 am

@Invalid:
[quote=Invalid](insert large wall of text here from previous post)[/quote]

I don't think I was totally coherent when I made that particular post; I think it was really late at night at that time. Anyway, I was thinking about it, and En-Ghoul could run an offensive Sub-Swords Dance set with Shadow Sneak and a Fighting move (I'm sure that you haven't thought of that one yet). It doesn't seem hard to set up though if you know enough about battling stuff, you just set up a sub on something weak or resisted (which usually can happen), set up a Dance, and sweep. Of course it isn't always that simple, but still, +2 En-Ghoul is scary.

@everyone:
Do you all think that Mevenetalno and Krush should be ubers? I was talking to Invalid about that, and he said that Mevenetalno could easily stall out opposing Pokémon through using Cosmic Power a bunch of times. I remember in one of my recent battles that Thramo's Fire Blast (252 SpAtk w/ Timid nature) only did about 54% damage to Mevenetalno (I'm guessing it had invested in special defense). That is some serious staying power right there. Also, Krush can also be 'stallish' just like Mevenetalno, as it has around the same defenses as Krush, and it also has Cosmic Power. There are obvious ways to stop these Pokémon, through using things like Taunt or Whirlwind, but not all teams have these things.

Basically, do Krush and Mevenetalno have a negative impact on the current metagame through their stalling abilities? What do you all think?

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 3:14 am

I think Mevenetalno is one of the most stallish caps yet. All you have to do is bring it in and set up Cosmic Powers and it takes almost any hit. And it's only weakness is Fire which is only x2 effective and after a few Cosmic Powers even that fails to really hurt the thing. Plus its ability to restore its health using rest and sleep talk makes it even more annoying. It can literally outstall anything and anything that tries boosting speed gets a gyro ball to the face... As for Krush i'm not really sure, it doesn't seem as bulky as Mevenetalno to me and it doesn't seem as dangerous because a lot of pokemon bring strong fighting moves which it takes for x2 but other than that idk ill have to try it...
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 5:50 am

Meventalno can be stopped via Taunt, or depending on his set, Phy/Sp Fire attacks.

That Meventalno you fought, was HP/Sp.Def maxed, with Def being it's weakness.
A Pokémon with Mold Breaker + EQ can also break it. Remember that this is a different metagame, so try out new things that didn't work in BStandard.

Meventalno is actually made to be a very defensive wall.

@Gassy:

That's why Swords Dance, Meditate and Bulk Up exist.
If you DD on it, Shift Gear on it, and etc, ofc you'll get Gyro Balled to death, you should already expect that. Now the thing is simple, Meventalno only has acess to 8 Gyro Balls. After he uses those up, he's done in battle if you don't do damage to it. That assuming it's my build ofc. You can switch Pokémon, do setup, etc etc and let him waste PP while you do wtv you want unless your opponent switches pokémon. And if you let it setup, ofc it's gonna be harder to kill, you should try to stop it before it's setup, not after

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 8:34 am

The point is not every team carries a taunt user or mold breaker user and even if those go down and Mevenetalno sets up and starts stalling its basically end game from there. Plus it doesn't have to run gyro ball i've ran one with metal burst that was just as effective if not better at taking out threats.
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 12:54 pm

If you run metal burst, they have to hit you, if they refuse to hit, it can't do any harm

Roar and Whirlwind can also fck it

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Mevenetalno is made to be the stallest staller ever Razz

What we can do to help make it less stalling, is to replace Cosmic Power by Amnesia.

He has Iron Defense and Amnesia, which to make it stalling enough to be like Cosmic Power would cost him another moveslot.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 1:08 pm

Quote :
If you run metal burst, they have to hit you, if they refuse to hit, it can't do any harm
Still, that enables Mevenetalno to stall out the opposing side, if that side only has offensively-oriented Pokémon.

Quote :
What we can do to help make it less stalling, is to replace Cosmic Power by Amnesia.

I don't 'love' that move, as Cosmic Power is the main reason why Mevenetalno can stall out certain Pokémon. If it were me, I would like to see what other people think before that move is changed.

Also, I think that Mevenetalno could be useful with a set containing Toxic / Gyro Ball / Cosmic Power / Rest. Toxic as we all know doesn't hit some Pokémon, but that would allow Mevenetalno to successfully stall out certain Pokémon more easily. Mevenetalno also doesn't 'need' Sleep Talk really.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 1:46 pm

I think your best solution is to probably get rid of rest and sleep talk or just rest. That or get rid of levitate so ground moves can hit it harder....
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Wed May 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Without Sleep Talk, Meventalno is subjectible to anyone coming in on it and "playing" with it's life Razz

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Thu May 30, 2013 12:26 am

steel dragons wrote:
This is a Pokémon that I previously posted on here. I slightly changed its base stats, its name, and added a better concept. I wanted to create a decent Pokémon that used Snow Warning, as Abomasnow isn't that great of a Pokémon. Fracterlow does have its flaws, such as a low base speed and two 4x weaknesses, but it takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock, and overall has better stats than Abomasnow.

I'm not comfortable implementing Fracterlow because it blatantly outclasses Abomasnow, as of now the only reasons to run Abomasnow while this thing exists are for Grass STAB or for Dual Warners. I have nothing against Fracterlow being good, I just don't want it to suck up every potential use of Abomasnow. Also, you can try to sell me on it if you disagree.

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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Thu May 30, 2013 2:35 pm

Vallair (made by ThePokePaul):
Spoiler:
 

@ThePokePaul: Your CAP looks interesting, but there are three main aspects that I would change:

1. You should expand more on the concept. You don't need to write an essay about Vallair, but at least write a few sentences on it.

2. Our CAPs can only have one ability (unless specifically allowed to do so), so choose between Technician and Big Pecks.

3. The moves are fine, but I would include more non-attacking moves. Right now, you only have three non-attacking moves, and some more of those non-attacking moves could help it a bit. For example, you could give it Tailwind, which would be a decent choice for a move here.

To clarify, points 1 and 2 should definitely be changed, while 3 is just my own preference.

I do hope that you create more CAPs in the future, as Vallair looks like it could be useful in the current metagame.
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PostSubject: Re: CAP Discussion   Thu May 30, 2013 10:49 pm

I would suggest lowering its stats first of all, stats like that with a Flying/Fight type is ridiculous. and yes more supporting moves you can't just have 18 attacking moves with bulk up and roost
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