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 May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion

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SupahGassy
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Tue May 07, 2013 11:19 pm

i mean you can't really say Psychic is a bad typing. Seeing as how many OUs are Psychic including cresselia who uses its psychic type to its advantage because ghost, bug, dark are all weaknesses covered by a steel type like heatran. and Deoxys-D does have that base 95 speed and forget prankster sableye because most deoxys forms carry magic coat to count prankster taunt users as such. but again i digress because Deoxys-D has its low hp stat and as you said besides deoxys-s's speed the rest of its stats are somewhat mediocre
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 12:28 am

Cresslia is a great Pokemon, but it's Bug and Ghost weaknesses screw it hard. The typing is terrible for Deo-D, since it allows Scizor to trap or kill with no fear at all, and Deo-S doesn't get stab on most of it's usefull moves. Most offensive varients don't run Psycho Boost because it has better optioins, even without STAB.

Finally, the generalization that most Deo run Magic Coat is just false, there's no room on either of their sets for it without giving up a move you actually need, usually Taunt. Even with that being the case, now you can get setup on. Seriously, I don't even use S anymore because of how little it can accomplish.

And, just a note, Gassy. 94.4% of Deo-D on PO use sets without Magic Coat. Smogon's analysis, on top of being for ubers, has nothing to do with actual usage. Please come up with your points yourself or risk being horribly wrong.


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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 12:58 am

well first of all any good player obviously runs magic coat for the point of not being taunted by prankster sets. deoxys-d is too slow to really even run taunt over other faster users of taunt. but the fact that pursuit users can really take advantage of it more than likely not running other attacking moves than seismic toss and night shade. and u-turn teams completely screw it over. So i see the point where it isnt banned but you also can't ignore it being a strong pokemon to set up hazards on the field. and sure a person could rapid spin them away but thats obviously why you run a spinblocker such as sableye gengar or jellicent who are all great spin blockers.
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 1:32 am

You are right in that sense SupahGassy in the sense that Deoxys-S / D succedd well in getting up hazards. But, they really don't offer much else. Usually, people want their Pokemon in general to fit in well with their particular teams. Deoxys doesn't offer many helpful resistances, and it simply can't do that much outside of setting up hazards.

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well first of all any good player obviously runs magic coat for the point of not being taunted by prankster sets. deoxys-d is too slow to really even run taunt over other faster users of taunt

Deoxys-D actually has a base 95 speed, which is quite fast for a defensive Pokemon. Thus, it will outsped a majority of the walls out there, so Taunt is useful. Also, there aren't that many Prankster users to wrooy about. Sableye is a threat, Whimsicott is hardly seen anymore, Prankster Thundurus is an Uber, and Prankster Tornadus is hardly seen, as it is bettter suited for an offensive role.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 12:03 pm

Well, for someone who does a shit ton of lurking on Smogon, you should know that their most reccommended set is Max Speed Deo-D, and for good reason: It's faster than almost every Taunt user in the game. The only reason to run Magic Coat is to beat other Deoxys, since they're the only taunt users that are going to outspeed you. And if you really think that Sableye or Whimsicott are heavy enough threats to justify wasting a moveslot on them, then I can't help you.

And, again, nearly 95% of users on PO don't use Magic Coat. If it were actually broken, or even useful, you'd expect that more than 5% of people would use it. Maybe it's a well guarded secret, but I'm inclined to believe it's just not good, since I've used both of these Pokemon since Gen 5 started.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 12:45 pm

Jirachi is in UBERS, so that's a counter fail. DO NOT quote smogon when our tiers are not the same as theirs, the idea of voting is to use YOUR mind, not text someone else wrote.




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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 3:00 pm

I did some calculations and i found that after intimidate from landorus-t, your Kyurem-B set is walled by landorus-t, see without running an ice attack kyurem-B can't really handle landorus-t here are my calcs

4 SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 94-110 (25.47 - 29.81%) -- possible 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 130-153 (35.23 - 41.46%) -- 78.93% chance to 3HKO

even gliscor kind of rules you out with poison heal and protect and you not running an ice attack it also walls you

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 97-116 (27.4 - 32.76%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

and earth power doesn't hit either. so unless you're also running ice beam over roost or maybe ice beam over earth power than these two are trouble for you. but running ice beam over earth power lets heatran wall you then so you'd have to get rid of roost which is your only really reliable recovery for hazards. j/s
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Wed May 08, 2013 3:19 pm

with your kyurem-b set you also fail to beat out slowbro

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 153-183 (38.83 - 46.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Earth Power: 29.94 - 35.53%

and hidden power fire obviously isnt the way to go which also means you'd have to try and run fusion bolt over earth power or roost also or hp fire which does

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 257-304 (65.22 - 77.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so you really can't have all the power you're saying because you'd have to run the best moves possible if i may say you're best set is probably to run

Kyurem-B@Life Orb/Expert Belt
Naughty Nature
252Atk/4SpA/252Spe
Teravolt
-Earth Power
-Fusion Bolt
-Dragon Claw/Outrage
-Ice Beam

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 09, 2013 6:02 am

To wall something, you have to come in and resist the next 2 hits without crits. If you waste 1 turn coming in, it fcks your HP, and then you're slower in the next turn, how will you wall it?

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 09, 2013 11:41 am

Excellent work diogo, I like that line of reasoning. Gassy, personally, I think you'd be better off with dragon claw, earth power, hp fire, ice beam, since the main things I've had issues with were ground types. But your set does work well against the threats you mentioned, it also hits Jellicent which gives me headaches if it comes in on anything but dragon claw or I get a min damage roll. If I wanted to run fusion bolt, I'd turn HP fire and Earth Power into Focus Blast and rely on 70% accuracy so it can still deal with Heatran and Ferrothorn at the same time, instead of just keeping Earth Power.

The risky, but nearly perfect coverage set:
 

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 09, 2013 7:48 pm

Diog, the point is that WITHOUT a crit (lets not include hax here) all 3 of the pokemon i mentioned COULD take a hit from invalid's previous kyurem-b set with hp fire, dclaw, and earth power because even though they're slower they can come in on 1 hit and take another and simply hit back with strong attacks, seeing slowbro has slack off also lets it recover and gliscor's poison heal + protect strategy lets it heal off damage it came in on.

But, with the set Invalid just posted it covers these things but then lacks recovery from roost. I should do some calcs though to see the damage role focus blast does to ferrothorn over earth power or ice beam but i'm really not in the mood to right now. But yes with a 4 Moves + Life Orb set it hits multiple OU threats way too hard. Fusion Bolt even hits skarm for about 70%
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Gassy, you're seriously misconstruing Diogo, he never said crits were important, in fact, he specifically said to ignore crits when making a check/counter list. Reading is hard, I know. He's saying you have to take two hits WITHOUT CRITS to be a wall.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Fri May 10, 2013 8:25 am

Gassy, Ferro/Forre are not actual counters unless Kyurem-B is Scarfed/Banded, else he'll eat through them with a Special attack.
You'll have to sacrifice a Pokémon to switch into something that Kyurem-B can't kill or will be killed by.

Depending on the set, you either have to rely on a specific counter, or you'll always be fcked, it's easy to see that.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Fri May 10, 2013 5:46 pm

i never named ferro or forre as counters here... and i'm not saying it has counters or not i just named a better set to use if you're going to use a kyurem-b
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Fri May 10, 2013 7:14 pm

after much testing, I've realized that Focus Blast has 20% accuracy, so if you're looking for a good K-B avoid Focus Blast.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 am

SupahGassy wrote:
i never named ferro or forre as counters here... and i'm not saying it has counters or not i just named a better set to use if you're going to use a kyurem-b

So you're basically proving us right. There are no counters for Kyurem-B, if it comes down, It'll destroy everything.

Even stupid kyurem-B's force you to have some pokémon die.

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-18101148

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 11, 2013 12:47 pm

there are counters just not for the particular set i named. there are checks though, such as dugtrio, terrakion, scizor, etc. these are CHECKS though, not counters. theyre just things that can come in after something fainted and ko kyurem-b plus hazards my friend, hazards... i'm not saying its broken or not, i'm saying its a strong pokemon but has its weaknesses and its not really fair for this OU metagame
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 12, 2013 5:24 pm

The only reason I've voting Kyurem for Standard, is because Ik it's OP, but I actually want to see how it'd be in Standard. Or as Invalid once told me, I just want a "new toy" Razz

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 12, 2013 9:44 pm

Diogo, you raise a good point with the battle you've shown, but here's a battle that shows that losing one Pokemon to Kyurem-B only really happens when you sack two of your checks, have your last check get perish song'd, pick Will-O-Wisp when you should've used Seismic Toss, win the battle, and then blame the loss of a Pokemon on Kyurem when you made horrible decisions because your opponent also made horrible descisions: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-18101148

Also, "because it's fun" is a horrible reason to unban anything.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Tue May 14, 2013 2:59 pm

At that moment, I actually thought that Lava Plume had 50% chance of burn. I later came to know I was thinking of Sacred Fire lol.

Also, when did I say it was fun?

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