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 May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion

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PostSubject: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 02, 2013 2:19 pm

This is the official discussion area for the Tier voting and nominations of the month of May 2013. Nothing you say here has any bearing on the voting or nomination process, this only exists to share your thoughts with other members to try to weasel out some votes or to see the reasoning of other people.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Thu May 02, 2013 7:39 pm

My vote reasoning:

Kyurem-B to Standard - I'm sticking to my guns here and voting for this again. While it may have a lot of power, its defensive typing isn't the best and its movepool isn't necessarily the best either in relation to its stats.
Victini to Standard - Victini has the typing to safely switch into certain moves, and foes will have to worry about its high-powered V-Create, or even Final Gambit, which Victini is the best user of.
Serperior to Creative - Seperior's stab moves are resisted by a lot of standard Pokemon, and chances are by the time that Serperior uses Leaf Storm, the opponent would have switched in a counter that handles Serperior well.
Sigilyph to Creative - I just believe that Sigalyph is better than an 'Inspired' Pokemon.
Genesect-B / Genesect-C / Genesect-S to Inspired - Honestly, these Gnesect forms are outclassed by Genesect-D in every way. Genesect learns Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt naturally, which is better than Techno Blast. At least Genesect-D's Techno Blast is Water-typed, which is Gnesect's best Water-typed move.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 1:11 am

Your reasoning for Kyurem-B isn't even reasoning, it's like listening to diogo describe the shortcomings of his CAP.

I really don't see how you can think Victini and Kyurem B should be in the same tier at all.

If Serperior goes to Creative it's going to be the tier from hell. in OU dealing with it is easy, blissey, chansey, scarfmence, and amoonguss(which I'm assuming is moving up) are great counters, but what is there in Creative that can deal with it? Amoonguss, which might even be moving up too.

Genesects Drive formes are outclassed by Aqua, but Aqua is so barely better that they're hardly weak enough compared to it for INSPIRED. Just imagine for one second trying to deal with Genesect with an inspired team, it's ridiculous.


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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 1:19 pm

Quote :
Genesects Drive formes are outclassed by Aqua, but Aqua is so barely better that they're hardly weak enough compared to it for INSPIRED. Just imagine for one second trying to deal with Genesect with an inspired team, it's ridiculous
.

What should be the reason that Pokemon get moved up and down for tiers then? Should it be their status in regards to the tier that they are already in, or how they would do in the tier that they were nominated to? (or a combination of both factors) I was always of the thinking that if something was defnitely outclased by another Pokemon in the same tier, that it should be moved down a tier level. In this case, no one in their right minds are going to use Genesect-B, Genesect-C, and Genesect-S when Genesect-D has a slight advantage over them, so why should they even be in the same tier?

For Kyurem-B, I'm saying that Kyurem-B's many flaws could be used as reasons to move Kyurem-B down from ubers to standard. While Kyurem-B has gnerally great stats, it has a somewhat-bad typing, its movepool isn't necessarily the best for it (no real physical ice moves), and it only has a base 95 speed, which is outsped by plenty of the Pokemon in standard.

For Victini, that vote is based on plenty of experience using Victini in standard, and I can't really say that its let me down, at least not that much.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 1:45 pm

I'm voting on Kyurem-B to standard because simply what steel says... it's typing gives it quiet a disadvantage in Standard. priority mach punchs and bullet punches running about easily can KO Kyurem-B and it doesn't have the greatest offense to handle things. Sure a choice band outrage would be nasty from it but almost everyone runs something that has priority to take it out..
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 1:50 pm

No one would use them, but the difference between them is so marginally small, there's no "fair" way to assign them. Genesect-A is going to kick Nas in Creative, and I don't think it has much to do with aqua cassette, Genesects other forms are going to be almost identical, having them in Inspired is stupid. List a few some Inspired Pokemon that can actually deal with it, tiers aren't about making sure nothing is outclassed all the time, you can't just break tiers because something is outclassed.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 1:56 pm

SupahGassy wrote:
I'm voting on Kyurem-B to standardKyurem-B and it doesn't have the greatest offense to handle things.

That's just a blatant lie, it literally does have the "greatest offense". Maybe you guys should quit circle jerking eachother and actually list a threat for it. A few Pokemon that can come in on banded outrage would be nice. I'll start you off. Ferrothorn and Foretress. What fucks both of those? Magnezone, Kyurem-B is the easiest thing to run and the easiest thing to support, Even Kingtrace is being a smogonite when he says it should be standard. He gives the same retarded reasons as you do, "well it's typing isn't the greatest" Truck I forgot this is a kindergarten tier discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:05 pm

So you're telling me stealth rocks and the oh so overused scizor/breloom/conkeldurr can't use mach punch/bullet punch to take it out? along with it's base 95 speed which is so slow in a metagame like this? you can say anything is broken with the right support, that's not really an argument here...
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:09 pm

yes, correct, I am telling you that, because if it comes out before you set up rocks, which is called switching it in, or using it as a lead, rocks are irrelevant. and at 100% health, none of those moves ohko it, run the calcs, scizor comes the closest with a CHANCE to ohko. Try bringing scizor in on it? you're going to have a bad time, outrage hits you twice while bullet punch fails to ohko. Congrats, you read smogon right, not think with your brain.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:16 pm

It's even more obvious that you guys are being inspired by smogon when Kyurem-B is even being discussed while Zekrom is in Ubers. People use Zekrom in the exact same way as Kyurem-B while Kyurem-B completely outclasses it. http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi%20Ubers/644.html

A SMOGON article that lists Mixed attacker as the top set is not a reliable source since it's not based on actual data, here's the data. You can look at the real top set.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:17 pm

even if it does kill one pokemon on your team you're telling me that you'll have nothing faster to outspeed it and revenge kill. especially if it's locked into outrage and can't switch. say it KO's scizor or w.e with outrage and you bring in terrakion, you're obviously getting that kyurem-B out of the way because 1. it's locked into outrage and 2. nothing wants to take a close combat from a terrakion.
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:22 pm

but by then, it can run out of outrage and switch, outrage locks you in for 2-3 turns. and yes, forcing your opponent to pick something to die on turn 1 is broken, I really don't know how you don't understand that.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:26 pm

kingtrace wrote:
Since some folks seem to be using the two terms interchangeably, this thread is here to explain the difference.

A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon in a specific situation, but in some other situations can not. A good example is Landurous against Raichu. Though Landorous can defeat a raichu once it is in, if it switches in it's risking taking a Surf to the face and fainting. This makes Landorous a check, as it can only beat Raichu if Raichu doesn't use Surf.

A counter is a Pokemon that can kill in almost any situation, bar hax or very strange and unreliable sets. A good example is Rotom H vs. Genesect. Genesect can not do anything to harm Rotom H, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Bug Buzz are resisted. U-turn can allow another pokemon to come in, but Genesect itself can do nothing, so Rotom-H is a reliable counter.

Please keep these in mind as you're writing.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Here's something else fun for you, ferrothorn and foretress aren't even counters, they're checks.

4SpAtk Teravolt Kyurem Black (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fire) vs 252HP/168SpDef Leftovers Ferrothorn (Neutral): 51% - 61% (180 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Send in a ferrothorn on it and you're risking HP fire, once you've taken HP fire your health is low enough that next time you come in and try the same shit, you get 2hko'd by outrage.

252Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem Black (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/88Def Leftovers Ferrothorn (+Def): 37% - 44% (132 - 156 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

so there you go, find me a counter. for real.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 7:42 pm

being 3hko'd by outrage is good for one. because it can come in on one, take another one and hit back with gyro ball etc.

and i quote from smogon itself

"Saying Kyurem-B has no counters would be a dramatic exaggeration. Regardless, due to its ridiculously high offensive stats and available coverage options, it practically has no hard counters or switch-ins per se. Players must therefore rely on soft counters to combat specific sets, all of which have their own set of checks and counters. The closest thing to a complete stop are physically defensive variants of Jirachi, which sports the overall bulk to take both special and physical attacks from Kyurem-B. In return, Jirachi can either paralyze with Thunder Wave or Body Slam, or simply chip off Kyurem-B's health with Iron Head or Flash Cannon. With entry hazards and hail in effect, however, every Jirachi can get 2HKOed by either Life Orb Fusion Bolt or Earth Power. Similarly, Ferrothorn is either resistant or neutral to Kyurem-B's main moves, and can reply with Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, or Gyro Ball. Non-Gyro Ball variants struggle pathetically against Substitute sets, and Kyurem-B can use either Hidden Power Fire or Focus Blast to dispatch it quickly. Ferrothorn can also easily be worn down from taking repeated Ice Beams, Blizzards, and other attacks from Kyurem-B's teammates. All in all, physically defensive Steel-types (except for Skarmory due to its weakness to Fusion Bolt) can handle physically-based sets well, although a coverage move like Earth Power or Focus Blast can prematurely end the likes of Forretress, Cobalion, and Metagross.

Checking Kyurem-B is a far more common and arguably more practical way of dealing with it, as its typing and average Speed leave it vulnerable to a host of common threats in OU. Specifically, Kyurem-B is revenge killed easily by attacks from faster enemies; examples include Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse from Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon; Outrage from Haxorus and Salamence; Close Combat or Stone Edge from the Swords of Justice; Secret Sword from Keldeo; Iron Head from Jirachi; and Focus Blast from Tornadus and Alakazam. The secondary Ice-typing also makes it weak to common priority moves, especially Mach Punch from Breloom and Conkeldurr and Bullet Punch from Scizor and Metagross. If Kyurem-B mispredicts with an ineffective move or is locked into Outrage, it becomes easy pickings for the aforementioned attackers. These Pokemon, however, must tread carefully when it comes to the Choice Scarf set, Substitute sets, or sets with resistance Berries, because Kyurem-B can then ruin common checks and switch-ins.

Finally, entry hazards in general impair Kyurem's ability to sponge hits and make it more prone to revenge killing. Even with uninvested defenses, Kyurem-B still has enough bulk to survive random attacks at full health. Even Choice Band Scizor stands no chance at OHKOing 4/0 Kyurem-B, managing only 82.86 - 98.2% with Bullet Punch, while Substitute Hydreigon only stands a fair 25% chance of an OHKO with Dragon Pulse. Laying out Stealth Rock or at least one layer of spikes ultimately makes these OHKOes happen. Toxic Spikes also get a good mention, as they add to the amount of residual damage offensive sets suffer and also limit the number of times Kyurem-B can cycle between Roost and Substitute."
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sat May 04, 2013 8:21 pm

Invalid wrote:
A SMOGON article that lists Mixed attacker as the top set is not a reliable source since it's not based on actual data, here's the data. You can look at the real top set.
SupahGassy wrote:
and i quote from smogon itself

You must not be reading this thread at all if you are now trying to use smogon as the word of god. I'll rebut what they said anyway though since you don't have any original arguments.

Paragraph 1: They say it would be a "dramatic exaggeration" to say that Kyurem-B doesn't have any counters, then go on to list a bunch of Pokemon that they admit aren't counters. Also as we're not smogon, we don't have their tiers, Jirachi is uber, so the "closest thing to a complete stop" isn't even in the tier we're discussing. Paragraph 1 is a ridiculous fail, and nothing they said can even deal with a Choice Band set with HP fire and Earth Power for coverage.

Paragraph 2: This is about revenge killing Kyurem-B which isn't what I'm talking about at all, so it's irrelevant to the discussion. Yes, they can revenge kill it, but tell me again how you're going to prevent it from getting the first free kill.

Paragraph 3: This paragraph is about Hazards, of course it isn't going to sweep your whole team when it has 6 layers of hazards up, the point is you have no way to prevent them from sending it in before you get the hazards up.

In closing good job wasting EVERYONE'S time with an irrelevant article you copied into an actual discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 05, 2013 11:44 am

You're not even making an argument anymore you're just sitting there calling things retarded. so w.e i'm not even going on with this.
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 05, 2013 2:14 pm

weak

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 05, 2013 3:03 pm

Wether or not it can get a free kill is irrelevant. If you're not running specific checks or counters on your team, Latios is in a similar vein to Kyurem-B. Bar Chansey, which it can dispatch with Specs Psyshock, there's very little that Latios can't OHKO or severally cripple with the right move. However, it can be walled and it can be revenged, so we're not having a huge cluster Truck about it being ubers. Kyurem-B can seriously injure the two walls that are most likely to be used against it, Forry and Ferro, but with correct prediction they can both switch in and cripple/murder it. If you're suggesting that you enter the match, spam HP fire until everything is dead, and then somehow you're not choiced anymore and can switch to outrage, this all makes sense. However, if you're in a realistic scenario, you could reliably switch in Ferrothorn, para/gyroball, and still have a third of your HP left. Or, let's say it decided to start spamming HP fire right out of the gate. Switch to something that resists, get your rocks up if you can, and then it's going to have a much harder time sweeping. Kyurem-B is your lead? Time to start running Gen IV Sashed Infernape lead again. Even basic leads like Phys. Bulky Politoed or Deo-D can do something to prevent a sweep. Finally, if you're looking at this and saying "Well, you can support it with your whole team! Just run Magnezone, Espeon/Xatu, and your favorite spinner, and you're good to go!" you're up shit creek after either Kyurem or one of those three dies.

I have experience running this Pokemon. I've gone and played with it on ladders on other servers. Maybe I'm not the best Pokemon battler in the world, but I'm good enough to know that if your opponent is playing smart, you will not completely destroy everything.

P.S. Gassy, please don't be a whiny Butch from Team Rocket. I can't begin to have a reasonable argument if people that agree with me quote Smogon articles that clearly have no idea what they're talking about. Invalid didn't just call it "retarded", by the way, he made a clear and concise rebutal. You just didn't address any of his issues.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 05, 2013 3:39 pm

Obviously these tiers aren't smogon's but you still have pokemon here that can handle a Kyurem-B. You even have deoxys-d and speed as OU which in effect always get up AT LEAST one layer of rocks and spikes and deoxys-d can even toxic and recover spam while deoxys-s can run sash and superpower which is usually common if it wants to kill t-tar leads head on. obviously you're not gonna be using a kyurem-b as a lead with something like these two to threaten you. Even then kingtrace makes a good point on Latios, barring probably t-tar, it has no real counters, just checks and it can be revenged. Kyurem-B's speed won't even allow it to outspeed most of the metagame anyway and sure you can have hp fire but you can't just switch from an hp fire to a choice banded outrage, doesn't happen. which is why even a special defensive heatran could probably even check kyurem-b. you think you're going to just predict the ferro to come in and hp fire but they bring in the heatran instead and get a flash fire boost, and not to mention sp.def heatran can run stealth rocks and roar so you're not gonna be staying in and getting off very many hits and as soon as you come back in thats another 25% off if you don't have a rapid spinner. Which is also another hinder to using kyurem-b YOU NEED A SPINNER and the most common ones now a days are Starmie and Forretress and a good prediction and switch to say Chandelure on your rapid spin... and this chandelure is scarfed, not uncommon, will easily KO both those pokemon after rocks. Obviously Kyurem-B is a strong pokemon but the fact is it can be handled with in OU. I know this from playing against it, i've never used it but i've faced it many times and it's never given me trouble.

So there. i have no more to say
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Sun May 05, 2013 10:28 pm

I'm not saying you spam HP fire, I'm not making a guide on how to use Kyurem-B perfectly, I'm saying if it is used perfectly it's uncounterable. My Point in all this is that Kyurem-B brought out can not be stopped from killing one of your Pokemon unless you know which move it's going to pick. Prediction is a part of the game, but it's rarely as necessary as with Kyurem-B. I think this Pokemon's insane 170 attack stat is the first indicator that it should probably be in uber, but you can look past that and actually see what it's capable of, and what it's capable of is more than any Standard Pokemon should be. The only way to kill it off is for it to revenge kill it while it's locked in. If we speculate that it might be life orb | dragon claw | hidden power fire | Earth Power | Roost, there actually are no good counters. the aforementioned checks aren't capable of living 2 hits. Ferrothorn and Foretress take a dragon claw and then has to live life orb HP fire, I've calced this already, it can happen, and it can not happen (for Ferrothorn that is, Forretress always dies). Heatran has to take a dragon claw and then live earth power, not happening. The safest switch would be Skarmory which can't actually damage it and can't roost off life orb HP fire, and if it does happen to come in on HP fire, it's completely screwed. I am willing to admit max specially defensive Skarmory can deal with it, but you still have the same lurking boogeyman that it could have fusion bolt. With all that offensive prowess and relative ease at covering it's potential counters it's already a huge issue that we should be able to get by without adding to our standard metagame. And as good as it is offensively, it's far bulkier than the majority of Standard. In closing this set is all but guaranteed a free kill every time it comes out, and then isn't locked in.
Calculations:
 
Set:
 

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Mon May 06, 2013 2:40 pm

I've been testing the set in question. It seems to be exactly the case that if you bring it out at a decent opportunity, your opponent has no feasible way to stop you from getting a free kill. The only thing that gets in it's road is Ferrothorn in rain, my theory about rain ferro teams becoming the main thing anyone actually uses seems to be correct from my experience laddering. I've used it and my conclusion remains the same, Kyurem-B is too easy and it changes the metagame too drastically for my liking.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Tue May 07, 2013 2:56 pm

i'd like to try and get people to recognize Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S to Ubers these two pokemon always get up at least a layer of spikes and stealth rocks and with Deoxys-S having one of the fastest speeds in the tier its quite possible for it to run an anti-lead set with life orb running Superpower Psycho Boost Shadowball and a filler. and Deoxys-D is quite the bulky pokemon to stop stall teams with taunt and toxic and having recover along with this is no easy feat for any stall pokemon your best hope is to toxic it on a switch or hope you still have t-tar around to try and trap it but with its huge defense it more than likely can live an un choice banded pursuit. Then again i digress because there is no team preview so you don't always know if the opponent is running a Magic Bounce user such as espeon to knock sr and spikes back but if the Deoxys-S set is a mixed attacker you're in trouble to come in on a possible shadow ball and be 2hko'd. maybe i just need more opinions on why these aren't uber yet here.
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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Tue May 07, 2013 6:18 pm

Well, here is my opinion:

Personally, I have not seen Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S used in a while now; that alone discourages me from listing them as 'uber'.

For Deoxys-D, its high defenses are counter-balanced by a low HP stat. While it is bulky, it doesn't have the greatest defensive typing, and it doesn't have much offensive capability at all. If you want a Pokemon to stop stall, Sableye most likely is the better option, as it has prankster-boosted Taunt, Recover, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic.

For Deoxys-S, it does have a high speed, yes. However, a few things have worked against it this generation. One of them, like you mentioned, is the rise of Magic Bounce Pokemon, which stop Deoxys-S from laying any hazards at all. Deoxys-S can use Shadow Ball to dispense of them, but it isn't the ideal situation to be in. (Espeon's Shaodw Ball would hit Deoxys-S hard, and Espeon could survive a Deoxys-S Shadow Ball) Second, a lot of leads nowadays are weather-changer leads. Deoxys-S would be hard pressed to do too much to Politoed and Ninetales, Tyranitar would probably just switch out fearing a Deoxys-S Superpower, and Hippwodon would probably just use Earthquake on Deoxys-S because of the threat of Taunt. Deoxys-S is still good at laying down hazards, but Deoxys-S doesn't have a great defensive typing (so it can't switch into many moves), and its other stats besides speed are really only average.

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PostSubject: Re: May 2013 Tier Voting Discussion   Tue May 07, 2013 11:18 pm

Deo-D isn't uber because, frankly, getting hazards up isn't broken. Granted, it's promised at least two layers if your opponent isn't an Espeon or Xatu, but if you really dislike them, then you can run a spinner. On top of that, the only logically reason to ban Deo-D isn't because it's niche is broken, but because it's better at it's niche than most other choices. That being said, Ferrothorn, Forry, Donphan, Skarm, Chansey, and others can also provide hazards along with extensive aditional support, and Espeon is a superior Dual Screener. As a wall, good Trucking luck with that. Mono Psychic isn't doing you any favors, and in return you're unlikely to be able to anything at all, unless you abandon Taunt, Recover, or Night Shade in favor of TWave.

Deo-S is outclassed at using hazards by Deo-D. There's absolutely no reason to run it as a hazard user, since it only gets up two layers. As for the Life Orb sweeper set, it's not killing anything crucial without help, and Chansey walls it all day even with Superpower. It's just not a threat to prepared teams, especially mixed stall.

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