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Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:35 pm

Well, this isn't exactly the same as Unaware. It can be argued that it's worse because it only erases them when you switch in, so the opponent can just set up again and their stat changes will still be in effect, unlike with Unaware which would ignore them. However, this could have a small merit in disrupting Baton Pass teams, I guess. If your Unaware user is taken out, the enemy will basically be able to mow your team down. However this ability can at the very least slow set up users down.

I realize what Kingtrace was saying, I just wanted to point out the potential different uses of these abilities (even if they are minutia at best)

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:53 pm

kingtrace wrote:
As for reset stat changes, I have good news for you all. That ability is all ready to go, and in fact, it's so good we're putting it in all of Breakdown's tiers. From now on, Bibarel and Quagsire will have this new ability, and we'll call it "Unaware."
Unaware resets stat changes like Clear Smog does?I was never aware of that.

"Unaware ignores other Pokémon's positive and negative stat changes when calculating damage involving a Pokémon with this Ability. This means that damage dealt by a Pokémon with Unaware ignores the target's Defense and Special Defense stat changes. Likewise, damage dealt to a Pokémon with Unaware ignores the attacker's Attack and Special Attack stat changes.
Unaware will not prevent the moves Stored Power and Punishment from factoring in the stat changes that determine their power."

"Clear Smog inflicts damage and resets all stat levels of the target to 0. This effect does not work if the foe is unaffected by the attack or if the foe is behind a Substitute. Clear Smog does not miss unless the target has just used Fly, Dig, Dive, Bounce, or Shadow Force."

It's something different from Unaware. I just made a suggestion because it seems that Gassy is looking for something to screw with Baton Pass teams or to stop setup Pokémon.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:08 pm

Diogo, he was saying that they basically have the same end result. Which they do. They both attempt to nullify stats changes of the enemy in different ways. As I said above, the effect of the proposed ability can even be considered worse since it's not as permanent.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:28 pm

Diogo, the thing your ability does is completely covered by Unaware, and the two things that could end up happening are:

1. As Frost said, Unaware could end up outclassing your ability, in which case there's no real need to implement it because we could just give Unaware to the Pokemon we want to improve.

2. The permanent removal of stats could completely outclass Unaware, which is not something we generally want to do.  

At the end of the day, it's so similar to Unaware that all we'd be doing by adding it is either us saying "that's dumb, I'll use Unaware" or us saying "Never gonna use Unaware." At the end of the day, it's simply better/worse Unaware, which doesn't have much place in this project.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:26 am

My thoughts:

1. We could make an ability called something like "Inner Power", and it could double your special attack, just like Huge Power for physical attack. This kind of ability just makes sense to have, and we could give it to some weaker Psychic Pokémon and such.

2. We could make Pickup and other 'useless' abilities actually useful in battle. For example, we could make Pokémon with Pickup have a random item each battle, we could have Run Away mean that the Pokémon could be able to switch out no matter what, even if something like Shadow Tag is active, and stuff like that.

3. We could make the poison typing more useful; for example, we could make it super-effective against a common type like Water.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:01 am

Idk i was trying to think of a word that would associate with punishing a student or someone intelligent. Usually its called a Misdemeanor when you are reprimanded for what you did. Idk it was like the first thing that popped into my head. If you have a better name for it go ahead.

I just feel the game is too based on making weather better yet worse and its not making playing the game anymore enjoyable. I just think some more creative abilities without using weather would be useful and make weather teams not so damn common. See, i generally almost hate gen 5 standard because it tries to make weather so strong yet making pokemon who don't generally need weather around weaker. And it just seems annoying to me that its like this. I think if we give more weather abilities we can balance it out with less weather abilities, you know?

I think we should make Reverse so that it reverses the stat changes of the pokemon so if it is +6 atk and spe then when the pokemon switches in its -6 atk and spe. This would give it a position over Unaware because it would make the opposing pokemon weaker and give you more of an advantage because no one wants to keep a weakened pokemon in. It would also make players more weary of using boosting moves and such because they don't want to be reversed. Overall i think its just a better fit to the idea and gives it an edge over Unaware.
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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:47 am

Kingtrace wrote:
At the end of the day, it's simply better/worse Unaware, which doesn't have much place in this project.
Let me put it as bluntly as a I possibly can: We are not putting it in.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:01 pm

SupahGassy wrote:
Idk i was trying to think of a word that would associate with punishing a student or someone intelligent. Usually its called a Misdemeanor when you are reprimanded for what you did. Idk it was like the first thing that popped into my head. If you have a better name for it go ahead.

I just feel the game is too based on making weather better yet worse and its not making playing the game anymore enjoyable. I just think some more creative abilities without using weather would be useful and make weather teams not so damn common. See, i generally almost hate gen 5 standard because it tries to make weather so strong yet making pokemon who don't generally need weather around weaker. And it just seems annoying to me that its like this. I think if we give more weather abilities we can balance it out with less weather abilities, you know?

I think we should make Reverse so that it reverses the stat changes of the pokemon so if it is +6 atk and spe then when the pokemon switches in its -6 atk and spe. This would give it a position over Unaware because it would make the opposing pokemon weaker and give you more of an advantage because no one wants to keep a weakened pokemon in. It would also make players more weary of using boosting moves and such because they don't want to be reversed. Overall i think its just a better fit to the idea and gives it an edge over Unaware.
So, end of the day, you think that weather is too good and too centralizing, and your solution to that is to create an ability that doesn't heavily affect weather Pokemon?

I mean, yeah, you're going to give Venusaur and Sawsbuck a little trouble, but that's just silly. Now Rain is THE ultimate weather, and your puny Sun is now crippled by Reverse.

Meanwhile, a rain team could shut down any potential sweeper just by switching in Reverse mon.

If you're dumb enough to think "This doesn't involve weather, so it means we're not involving weather in this thought process" then you should work on a different project. Like it or not, weather is here, and your ability cripples non-weather dependant sweepers.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:12 am

Not to mention we already upgraded Cloud Nine to cripple weather. It neutralizes the opponent's weather completely. It is a solution to countering weather without forcing a player to rely on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:27 am

Frost wrote:
Not to mention we already upgraded Cloud Nine to cripple weather. It neutralizes the opponent's weather completely. It is a solution to countering weather without forcing a player to rely on it.
and what has Cloud Nine that will really threathen weather teams?

Altaria? No. dies to ice beam from hail and rain teams.
Lickilicky? Gets KO'd by the ever so common Terrakion in sand.
Golduck? stop.

Sure it stops weather but what useful pokemon really gets it?

Its sorta the same with Unaware. Like sure Quagsire gets Unaware but with pokemon that already have base 145 atk what can it really do?

If you look at the stats of the actual pokemon that have these abilities and the usefulness of them in Standard then you'd see that theyre really useless even if you upgrade their ability.

Overall sure Reverse may seem dumb but its also dumb to say "well hey lets all make weather stronger and then make shitty pokemon have abilities to try and stop it" like really? it doesn't make sense to me. Weather wars are annoying and all this metagame is doing is focusing on making them more annoying, rather than making stronger pokemon that can help stop weather.

Lets see what got upgraded with weather....

Beartic/Empoleon- Polar Express
Flareon- Drought
Glaceon- Snow Warning
Cofagrigus- Now Steel/Ghost with Distortion...

And what do we have to stop all those things?....

Lickilicky, Golduck, and Altaria....


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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:38 pm

SupahGassy wrote:

and what has Cloud Nine that will really threathen weather teams?

Altaria? No. dies to ice beam from hail and rain teams.
Lickilicky? Gets KO'd by the ever so common Terrakion in sand.
Golduck? stop.

Sure it stops weather but what useful pokemon really gets it?
Oh my God. I've never in all my years read such a whinny, bitchy, stupid, Nas pull of a post.

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Just in case your reading is just as bad as your reasoning skills, Lickilicky is MORE bulky than Politoed, and of course Politoed is decently bulky all around. The only reason anyone finds a way to make Politoed useable is it's ability, and I'm sure something similar will be the case Lickilicky. Also, why the hell are you bitching about Distortion? In case you missed the memo, Lickilicky is immune to Ghost. Now, I'm not in the camp that Distortion doesn't need balancing, but this makes Lickilicky ESSENTIAL, not bad by any means.

And, not that I think Golduck is going to be any good, but it has the same BST as Politoed, and is near the same bulk and is faster by a wide margin.

If a good ability is all Politoed and Ninetails need, then a good ability is all this group needs, too.

SupahGassy wrote:
Its sorta the same with Unaware. Like sure Quagsire gets Unaware but with pokemon that already have base 145 atk what can it really do?

If you look at the stats of the actual pokemon that have these abilities and the usefulness of them in Standard then you'd see that theyre really useless even if you upgrade their ability.
What the Truck are you switching Quagsire into? Haxorus? Rampardos, Landy-T, Slaking, and Regigigas are the only standard Pokemon besides it that have 145 or higher, and most of them are killed or crippled by Scald. Maybe you weren't around during Excadrill days, but Quagsire is very, very valuable against boosters. I think mocking Quagsire's ability to wall actually shows your incompetence better than anything else I could ever say.

SupahGassy wrote:
Overall sure Reverse may seem dumb but its also dumb to say "well hey lets all make weather stronger and then make shitty pokemon have abilities to try and stop it" like really? it doesn't make sense to me. Weather wars are annoying and all this metagame is doing is focusing on making them more annoying, rather than making stronger pokemon that can help stop weather.

Lets see what got upgraded with weather....

Beartic/Empoleon- Polar Express
Flareon- Drought
Glaceon- Snow Warning
Cofagrigus- Now Steel/Ghost with Distortion...

Back to bitchy whining, I see.

Yes, your ability is dumb. Quagsire is already fantastic at dealing with boosters. I mean, maybe sometimes you'd rather just copy their boosts and kill them, sure... If only there was a Pokemon that could do that... It could be pink... Just with eyes and a mouth... And it could adopt the opponent's type, stats, moves, and abilities, too... Hmmmm.... Nope, nothing comes to mind. How about you?

Beartic/Empoleon - Beartic already has Swift Swim, this is just allowing him to be used in the same capacity in his own types weather. Meanwhile, Empoleon is going to serve as a hail sweeper. Currently, we only have one. I'll explain more about why bitching about hail dumb down in Glaceon.

Flareon - Drought is good, and I'm not sure if Flareon getting it is actually the case, but you're just replacing one mediocre fire type with another, or god forbid running them both and wasting two team slots. Also, all three Cloud Nine users can switch in with minimal issue, Golduck and Altaria being the best of the three.

Glaceon - Alright, so it seems that at this point all you want to do is, nearly three years into gen 5, Butch from Team Rocket about auto-weather being a part of the metagame. Get over it. Hail is a weather with very minimal utility. We're giving you another option for a team playstyle to use, that isn't restrictive or stupid. Not to mention you also get Distortion and Cloud Nine to play with.

Cofagrigus - Maybe Distortion has some balance issues, but I already explained why Cofagrigus is a boon to Lickilicky, not a bane.

And now that that whiny victimizing session is over, on to the cloud nine users.

SupahGassy wrote:
And what do we have to stop all those things?....

Lickilicky, Golduck, and Altaria....
Lickilicky is built like Snorlax, only it's a Snorlax that now ends weather. It takes very little damage from Special Attacks, so it can easily stop Rain, Sun, and Hail. Sand is the only issue, but Sand hasn't changed very much in next gen, as you so kindly pointed out. And this "Sand Terrakion" business is silly. I haven't seen that ever since Landy, Keldeo, and TTar became a thing.

Golduck is by no means bad, it's in the exact same boat as Politoed with very, very similar stats. As a water type, it fears little from Rain teams, so it can put an end to that.

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golduck: 240-283 (79.47 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile, Scarfed it outspeeds non-scarfed Terrakion and lives a Close Combat from non-banded, allowing it to do a little damage and end the weather. If you run a defensive set, well...

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golduck: 165-195 (45.32 - 53.57%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO

Golduck ends the weather and is now merely 3HKO'd, allowing it to burn with Scald (hopefully) or switch out to do it again later.

Golduck could also likely handle Hail, with Sun being the only weather it could have trouble against.

Altaria benefits from a Dragon typing, giving it numerous resistances. Altaria is the best option for dealing with sun, as it resists nearly everything it will see. In the Rain, normally only Politoed runs Ice Beam, and that's on lesser seen Choice sets, so it could still function there, as well.

So, now you hopefully see that you're an idiot, though I'm doubting you will, at least everyone else can plainly see you're an idiot. In summation, my friend:

Supah Gassy wrote:
Good job.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:31 pm

Queentrace wrote:
Cofagrigus - Maybe Distortion has some balance issues, but I already explained why Cofagrigus is a boon to Lickilicky, not a bane.
I had planned for Cofagrigus to be balanced from the very beginning. Very shortly after its implementation Distortion was supposed to activate in a manner opposite of other weathers: As in, the slower pokemon's weather will activate first. This would severely weaken Cofagirugs as the amazing counter weather lead it was before, and make it more difficult for it to keep up in weather wars. However, after Next Gen died down we just never got around to it. I have previously spoken to Invalid about this, and he says it will be done.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:32 pm

@gassy I've had enough of you using the word that gets auto-corrected to "Redneck", you will no longer be auth on the server. We don't need people like that representing us.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:46 pm

Gassy, I think you're about done with arguing anything. Your suggestion is never going to be implemented, you're not going to be taken seriously, and, if I can, I'm banning you from participating in server business because clearly you're incapable of any kind of mature behavior or reason.

You insult people constantly in your arguments, and it's clear the only reason you take offense to other people doing it is because you can't rebut anything yourself. You did it to Invalid during the Kyurem-B vote, and you did it to me now.

Obviously you have no place in a competitive Pokemon community if you can't even have a discussion without crying about it, especially if the discussion goes "You guys are so dumb, my ability is awesome, weather is sooooo lame, why are you guys so stupid, good job! Oh wait, you're insulting me?! I'ma use slurs now and you lose! Haha!"

You're likely done participating in this community, whether you want to be or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:31 pm

So we should rename jedi mind trick because it's long and ridiculous sounding

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:36 pm

If you can think of a better name, I'm all for it, but I'm not in the camp that it is in desperate need of change, at least not to the point I'd think of a new name myself. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:36 pm

@Frost: We could simply rename it Trickster (which means 'a person who plays tricks' (thesaurus.com)).  In essence, you're probably only going to use the ability to give a bad item to the opponent.  The name in itself seems appropriate, as it doesn't need to be a fancy name.

Also:
Steel Dragons wrote:

1. We could make an ability called something like "Inner Power", and it could double your special attack, just like Huge Power for physical attack. This kind of ability just makes sense to have, and we could give it to some weaker Psychic Pokémon and such.

2. We could make Pickup and other 'useless' abilities actually useful in battle. For example, we could make Pokémon with Pickup have a random item each battle, we could have Run Away mean that the Pokémon could be able to switch out no matter what, even if something like Shadow Tag is active, and stuff like that.

3. We could make the poison typing more useful; for example, we could make it super-effective against a common type like Water.
Any thoughts on these?  I think they were overlooked with the whole 'demeanor' discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:41 pm

Steel, I don't know why you felt it necessary to define the word "trickster", but I'll ignore that.

Trickster sounds very similar, both phonetically and in meaning, to Prankster, so I'd rather pick something else. However, if we can't, that'd work out fine.

Point 1 and 3 are not likely to happen. One just doesn't seem like an ability that I'd like existing, and in three, if we start screwing with the type chart, we'll have Level 1 Kyorge in Standard. XD

No, but, I feel like if we make one arbitrary change, we'll end up making more.

As for 2, though, I like the idea of Run Away doing it's thing. Pickup, though, well, not wanting to fix it like that, cause the makes it a pretty bad ability.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:53 pm

SupahGassy wrote:
Idk i was trying to think of a word that would associate with punishing a student or someone intelligent. Usually its called a Misdemeanor when you are reprimanded for what you did. Idk it was like the first thing that popped into my head. If you have a better name for it go ahead.
I ignored this in order to respond to dumber things, but, really, not knowing what a misdemeanor is should be a crime, perhaps a small one with minimal punishment that isn't very serious. If only there was a word for that.

It's associated with punishing litterers, jaywalkers, vandals, and traffic offenders. It has nothing to do with scholarly people.

Also, with the definition of demeanor I gave earlier, you could just put it together.

Mis = Bad
Demeanor = Behavior
Mis+Demeanor = Bad Behavior

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:16 pm

@Kingtrace: I think that Swindler could be a better name then, as it makes sense with what the ability does.

For point 1: Why wouldn't you like that ability to exist? Its not like we would give it to good Pokémon. I was thinking that we could give Inner Power to Pokémon like Hypno and Medicham. It would actually be cool if Medicham had it; you wouldn't know what to expect if it switches into battle.

For point 2: We don't really have to bother with Pickup, as Ambipom and Linnone would be the best users of Pickup, so it wouldn't be worth it. Here are my ideas for the other 'useless' abilities:
Illuminate: a 10-20 percent increase in accuracy. It would impact Starmie, Lanturn, Volbeat, and Watchog.
Minus / Plus: increases special attack by one level if the opposing Pokémon is an Electric or Steel Pokémon. This boost would only be in effect when the opposing Pokémon is an Electric or Steel type; if the opposing Pokémon switches out, the boost would go away.
Honey Gather: if the Pokémon doesn't have an item, the Pokémon gets and eats Honey every turn. This would impact the almighty Combees and Teddiursas that are all the rage nowadays.

For point 3: Ok, I can understand that. However, I think that the moves Acid, Acid Spray, and Gastro Acid should be able to at least hit Steel Pokémon for neutral damage, as it doesn't make sense that acid doesn't effect steel.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:08 pm

I like Minus and Plus. I'm also fine with the concept of Illuminate, but the whole Starmie thing is an issue. It's been high tieref for every gen thus far. I don't really think it should get anything.

I like Swindler. Way better than mind trick, and it fits. Frost approves.

Since Honey Gather is on nothing worth using, I see no problem with it. Though I also see no point either. Still, I see no harm in doing it. I quite like the idea of a handsfree leftovers. Maybe we can give it to other things? Heracross would make flavor sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:42 pm

Point 1: Inner Power: I was previously opposed to this existing because to me it was superfluous, anything we could change by giving it that ability could just get a stat boost. But considering that a Stat Boost is harder to keep track of than an ability, I'm now in favor of it if we're ever working on something that needs it. We work on a Pokemon to Pokemon basis (at the time being) to try to give them advantages, so going out of our way to pick a Pokemon would corrupt the process just a little in changing our priorities.

Point 2: Useless Abilities: Yes, those are all good ideas and we plan to do something with all the shitty abilities.

Point 3: Type Chart changes are too much to keep track of imo, they would make switching environments between TRG5 and Standard too clumsy of a process, and since we would like to be involved in both at the same time, that would be bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:13 pm

Drifblim now lost Confuse Ray and Recover, and gained Poison Heal in an attempt to balance it. Please test out battling with and against it and see what you think. Please provide logs or calcs.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:01 am

Synchronize: Any status affliction inflicted upon this Pokemon by the enemy will also be applied to them as well. This will happen regardless of immunities granted by typing, abilities, or otherwise (i.e. safeguard), unless the enemy Pokemon is already afflicted with a major status ailment. It will now also do this for Sleep and Freezes.

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PostSubject: Re: Next-Gen Changes   Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:47 pm

Here here. Synchronize needed to not be crap, or at least needed to be less crap.

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