November Tier Voting Discussions

Any discussion about the tier vote must take place here. I mean, you can talk about it in skype or where ever, but this is the good place.

I think Cofagrigus needs to be Creative. It walls way too well to be Inspired.

I'm tempted to say Cresselia to standard but I'm not sure. I mean it IS a tank.

Invalid and I also talked about Ditto. We aren't quite sure, but he suggested removing it entirely from tiers...

Also the tiers are out of date. They need to be updated on the thread. (Invalid that means you.)

The tiers shouldn't be out of date, I updated them the other night, but I'll check again to see if I screwed something up. (I'm sure I did)

I agree with Cofagrigus moving up, It's a perfect defensive Chansey surrogate/counterpart.

I don't like Cresselia in Standard because I feel like no one would ever use it.

My reasoning behind removing Ditto from tiers altogether, is that ditto gets no advantage for being in a certain tier. It can be a Giratina, but only if your opponent has a Giratina. It gets more powerful in higher tiers, at the same time as it's opponents get more powerful. So as of now, I'd like to vote it from Standard to Creative, since that wouldn't violate "idiot rule 2"

What do you guys think of nominating Moxie Salamence to Ubers. I think in the current game it's too easy to use and abuse. But I also don't want to create Neo-Dragon-Extinction. Would the current nerfing we've been doing to Dragon types and I'm now considering doing to Salamence be on par with the hap hazard dragon banning of 4th gen?


I support:
Galvantula to Creative ^
Honchkrow to Creative ^
Sandslash to Creative ^
Feraligatr to Creative ^
Swellow to Creative ^
Forretress to Creative v
Metagross to Creative v
Vulpix to Inspired v

There's no real reason for Thunderous-T or Multiscale Dragonite to be Uber. They each have numerous counters. Darkrai on the other hand has a good moveset, amazing stats, and an 80% Chance to put you to sleep, which will cause damage along with the sleep. It's obviously broken for Standard.

Multiscale Dragonite to Standard v
Thunderous-Therian to Standard v
Darkrai to Uber ^

Numerous Counters isn't a counter at all, list some counters and we'll get into whether they actually are counters or not.

Banded Mamoswine: Dragon Dance on the switch, Use fire punch or Outrage to one shot mamo, Multiscale lives ice shard.

Sash Mamo: Fire Punch on the switch, extreme speed to break sash.

Sash Weavile: Same as sash mamo.

Counters can be switched into a threat and then KO it, these are not counters.

Thundurus-T Is everything about broken 101 speed to outspeed the bar (100 Speed) and the highest special attack in Standard tying with Chandelure.

Thundurus-T's Checks are few and far between, even Chansey has to hope it isn't a nasty plot or focus blast variant.

I disagree with Darkrai, but that's not as bad as Thundurus-T and Dragonite.

Thundurus-T is immune to para, quick as a whip, and strong as a chandy. Electric is a powerful STAB, supplemented by focus blast and HP Ice. Nasty plot gives it muscle, and volt absorb lets it switch into electric for free, even healing of some of SR. Honestly, it hurts, especially with Thunder giving it 120 BP STAB with a 30% chance to para.

Dragonite, on the other hand, has immense bulk (albiet only once). Dragon dance can kick your butt, dragon tail can cycle through your team for para shuffling fun, roost to get health back, great coverage options in Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Superpower. Extremespeed, of course, is the reason pokemon like Mamoswine and weavile are only checks. They get wiped out by it (With weavile it doesn't even need a boost) and multi scale lets it live one ice shard. Like Invalid said, Dragonite can run straight through tons of teams.

Please don't unban these guys, we just got them out. XD

Two things:

1. We need to look at the banned items and decide if they are ban-worthy. For example, why is Wide Lens banned, becuase I have no clue.

2. I know that we have been taling about changing the base power of the moves Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse. In that case, can we change the abilities Snow Cloak and Sand Veil around to just remove the evasion boosts from them? I know that some Pokemon, specifically Cacturne and Froslass, can't use certain moves because of not being able to use Sand Veil / Snow Cloak.

We aren't changing the base power of moves for the standard tier. That'll be for a haxmon tier if it happens. Though, sand veil snow cloak that way may happen. As for items, they are already going up for vote this rotation.

Ok now that the actual voting has started, I'm going to way in on the votes that people actually care about:

Dragonite: Ok for this one, I can see arguments for both parties, but I still think it should stay banned. While I personally do not struggle very much in dealing with this, I have seen teams literally torn to shreds by just 1 dragonite. Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka14sTIhgn0#t=11m34s With the right set and team coverage there really is nothing that can stop these bastards. And they're still usable without multiscale. They just won't be insanely broken anymore. Plus there are other ways to take on mamo. Ever hear of a focus sash?

Thundurus-T: This thing is like Chandy with speed, aka scary. 145 is extremely high, and it's got a very comfortable speed stat to play with. Not only that, it can set up nasty plot. Just picture a Chandelure with Nasty Plot. That DOUBLES its already massive special attack. The problem with this thing is that it will ALWAYS tear one giant hole through the enemy team before it goes down. There is no avoiding it, and for some of us that's a problem.

The Items:
I personally am against all flinching items. I don't really think it's fair to have everyone using "rachi in a can."
Quick claws are just bullshit. Things like that ruin the game.

With enough random chance already built in, why do people want to shift the balance between luck and skill even more? I legitimately wonder sometimes how people can enjoy using something like Jirachi that unfairly influence probability. To me victories like that are not a result of anything you did. There's no merit in mercilessly haxing someone literally to death. It ruins the fun for people, and that's why some of these items are banned in the first place.

and by way I meant weigh. Boo.