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PostSubject: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:50 pm

Post all bitching and reasoning here.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:58 pm

Yes, Darkrai is fast and strong and can put your team to sleep, but we're already used to having to sacrfice a mon to sleep in order to win some matches. (Ninetails sleeps, Breloom sleeps, Amoongus sleeps, and even Gengar can if it feels like it.) Normal special walls work on it, Terrkion can pick up justified and then sweep on in, and most priority and faster things end it. It's scary, but not that scary.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:08 pm

I think we should give it another shot like before.
It's basically a Gengar/Breloom/Random Dark Type fusion, all you have to do is sleep sac something and then it becomes 50% less of a threat. SubNP is a bitch to deal with, but standard special walls and revenge killers don't have much of a problem with it.
Besides, with proper prediction and safe play, Espeon/Xatu can ruin it thanks to Magic Bounce. Scarfed Terrakion can outspeed and OHKO, and Chansey/Blissey are really hard for it to deal with. (Assuming it doesn't get beyond +4) Status and Priority just flat out rape it. And if you really hate sleep that much, just run a Lum Berry or some shit like that.
Also, needs more Manaphy being re-tested Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:10 pm

Then please go vote on that in the Emergency Darkrai Voting Thread. XD
http://breakdown.forumotion.com/t258-emergency-darkrai-tiering-vote

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:18 pm

I think that it should be in standard. At the very least, we can change it if it indeed is broken.

Anyway, my thoughts:

1.) While Drakrai is in standard, PLEASE don't use Alakazam. Darkrai has the same special attack as Alakazam, Darkrai has more speed than Alakazam, and Darkrai has way more defensive stats than Alakazam does. Darkrai also has more 'options' than Alkakazam in general anyway.

2.) There are ways to take Darkrai down. The most common way is switching in something to absorb the Dark Void, then switching in something like scarfed Terrakion to force Darkrai out. Obviously, most people tend to use Dark Void first, so that can be countered by either having a dedicated lead (which works in our tiers) or switching in a Magic Bouncer like Espeon to turn the tables on your opponent. At the very least, there are plenty of Pokemon that can resist Darkrai's Dark-typed attacks.
(Quick Note: the best Pokemon that can counter Darkrai with sleep-resistant abilities are Primeape and Magmortar, both with Vital Spirit. Magmortar actually isn't bad in this regard; it has a decent special defense stat and access to Mach Punch, along with its other powerful moves.)

3.) Darkrai actually has plenty of viable movesets. Many people use the 'Dark Void, Nasty Plot, Sweep' strategy, but Darkrai has other things it can do. Darkrai can run Dark Void, Substitute, and two attacking moves fairly effectively. It can effectively run a Scarfed set, using moves like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam for coverage. It also has the option to use Swords Dance, using moves like Sucker Punch and Drain Punch for its attacks. Finally, Darkrai can use four status-inducing moves (Dark Void, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic), so it can hurt opponents in that regard as well.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. I'm looking forward to having Darkrai in standard though.




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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:42 pm

My list of things that can hurt standard darkrai:

1. Primeape, who can switch in on unboosted Dark Pulse, Dark Void, or Nasty Plot, and KO with a scarfed CC.

2. Sleep Talk Heracross, who can get guts boost from sleep, and respond with a lucky cc or megahorn.

3. Anything running a lum berry or chesto berry that is faster than Darkrai.

4. Techiniloom with Mach Punch.

5. Sleep Talk Conkledurr.

After Sleep Clause kicks in:

1. Dragonite can respond by two hitting with extremespeed.

2. Scizor can also two hit through BP and can tank Focus Blast.

3. Terrakion and Keldeo both can outspeed with scarf and OHKO with their fighting stab.

4. Ditto, just like any other boosting sweeper.

I know I'm missing some things. Basically, you can revenge kill it if you have strong priority, or you are a scarf user who is capable of beating base 125 speed.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:47 pm

The thing that is actually very interesting is accelegor, who, with a lum berry, can absorb sleep, activate unburden, and then be an extremely fast hazard setter who can also bug buzz to kill Darkrai.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:52 pm

kingtrace wrote:
Yes, Darkrai is fast and strong and can put your team to sleep, but we're already used to having to sacrfice a mon to sleep in order to win some matches. (Ninetails sleeps, Breloom sleeps, Amoongus sleeps, and even Gengar can if it feels like it.) Normal special walls work on it, Terrkion can pick up justified and then sweep on in, and most priority and faster things end it. It's scary, but not that scary.
We're used to sacrificing Pokemon to sleep against threats that are much less broken than Darkrai, and that only applies when Breloom comes in on one of our team members that is susceptible to being slept by it. Breloom can't sleep faster Pokemon that can OHKO, Taunt, or Substitute. I'll assume your mean scarfed Terrakion since a nonscarfed set will be dispatched by Focus Blast 70% of the time. While Scarf Terrakion would love the boost, that does require prediction which doesn't always work out. If someone is using Terrakion as their designated check and they mispredict once, that allows Darkrai to sweep a huge portion of their team which should speak for Darkrai's brokenness. As for normal walls 'working on' it (by normal I'm assuming you don't mean Normal type) working on it isn't always enough. The most common spcial walls are Chansey and Ferrothorn. Chansey switches in gets slept, loses 12.5% of it's health, switches out for natural cure and then something else if vulnerable to sleep, if Chansey isn't used as sleep fodder it still loses a minium of 30.9% health from Darkrai's Focus Blast, that's not standard Chansey btw, that's my Chansey which is actually specially bulky. Ferrothorn is actually even worse aganst Darkrai, taking a minimum of 83% damage from Focus Blast. If the user has any patience at all Darkrai is nearly impossible to successfully wall. As for "most priority and faster things," I'll wait for examples. Umbrella statements don't really belong here.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:01 pm

Croconaw wrote:
I think we should give it another shot like before.
It's basically a Gengar/Breloom/Random Dark Type fusion, all you have to do is sleep sac something and then it becomes 50% less of a threat. SubNP is a bitch to deal with, but standard special walls and revenge killers don't have much of a problem with it.
Besides, with proper prediction and safe play, Espeon/Xatu can ruin it thanks to Magic Bounce. Scarfed Terrakion can outspeed and OHKO, and Chansey/Blissey are really hard for it to deal with. (Assuming it doesn't get beyond +4) Status and Priority just flat out rape it. And if you really hate sleep that much, just run a Lum Berry or some shit like that.
Also, needs more Manaphy being re-tested Neutral

Calling it a 'Gengar/Breloom/Random Dark Type fusion' not only points out that it gets the best or better of three different worlds, it's also an understatement. None of the Pokemon listed account for it's 127 speed. As for sleep sac'ing something, while that's the best way for most teams to deal with Darkrai, that's also the whole point of Darkrai, if it makes you choose a Pokemon to sleep, it's already crippled your teams synergy. Special walls DO have a problem with Sub NP Darkrai, at +2 Focus Blast 2hko's Chansey. The potential of Xatu and Espeon as counters would be nice... if Dark Void was Spore, the 90% accuracy which can often make Dark Void users rage comes back as 81% accuracy through Magic Bounce, I've had magic bounce miss on that move plenty of times so I know how much of an issue it is. I addressed Terrakion in my first reply to Kingtrace. Lum Berry doesn't work, you get slept on the switch, lum berry heals you, then they use it again, congratulations, you're now asleep. I won't allow Manaphy to sidetrack me, just know that I disagree with that also.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:09 pm

Something else to consider is if we allowed Darkrai to be in standard without Dark Void. I think that we could do that, at the very least.

Also, Kingtrace, Accelgor has a base 80 HP stat and base 60 SpD stat, so it can't take any of Darkrai's attacks, maybe not even Focus Blast. However, with a Modest nature and 252 SpA EVs (and no Life Orb), Accelgor's Bug Buzz KOs 'normal' Darkrai every time, doing 104.6 - 123.8% damage. Its defnitely something to consider.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:13 pm

steel dragons wrote:
I think that it should be in standard. At the very least, we can change it if it indeed is broken.

Anyway, my thoughts:

1.) While Drakrai is in standard, PLEASE don't use Alakazam. Darkrai has the same special attack as Alakazam, Darkrai has more speed than Alakazam, and Darkrai has way more defensive stats than Alakazam does. Darkrai also has more 'options' than Alkakazam in general anyway.

2.) There are ways to take Darkrai down. The most common way is switching in something to absorb the Dark Void, then switching in something like scarfed Terrakion to force Darkrai out. Obviously, most people tend to use Dark Void first, so that can be countered by either having a dedicated lead (which works in our tiers) or switching in a Magic Bouncer like Espeon to turn the tables on your opponent. At the very least, there are plenty of Pokemon that can resist Darkrai's Dark-typed attacks.
(Quick Note: the best Pokemon that can counter Darkrai with sleep-resistant abilities are Primeape and Magmortar, both with Vital Spirit. Magmortar actually isn't bad in this regard; it has a decent special defense stat and access to Mach Punch, along with its other powerful moves.)

3.) Darkrai actually has plenty of viable movesets. Many people use the 'Dark Void, Nasty Plot, Sweep' strategy, but Darkrai has other things it can do. Darkrai can run Dark Void, Substitute, and two attacking moves fairly effectively. It can effectively run a Scarfed set, using moves like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam for coverage. It also has the option to use Swords Dance, using moves like Sucker Punch and Drain Punch for its attacks. Finally, Darkrai can use four status-inducing moves (Dark Void, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic), so it can hurt opponents in that regard as well.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. I'm looking forward to having Darkrai in standard though.




While 1 and 3 are actually a little arguable, my goal here isn't to prove anything negative about Darkrai. On to Part 2

The Disadvantage of sleep foddering and Magic Bouncing was addressed in my above post to Croconaw. As for Pokemon Resisting it's STAB, of course, Pokemon can resist every Pokemon's STAB. That doesn't make it not broken. Primape is a great CHECK to Darkrai, however the set I've been referencing all along can kill Primape on the switch with Psychic, so it has to be played carefully. Magmortar isn't good, it just isn't, I really don't see why I should have to explain why it's not a decent counter but I will. Magmortar is weak to Stealth Rock and most teams have a member that can wall Magmortar, if Dakrai is just switched out everytime Magmortar comes out, Magmortar will die much sooner than Darkrai, making it a pseudo-check at best.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:20 pm

I have a list of applicable checks and counters slightly higher up. Paralyzing Darkrai, which should be the main goal of Chansey, cripples it. Toxic can also cause issues. Lum berry only works if you're faster than Darkrai, which Deo-s can boast. Even without Lum Berry, Deo-s can superpower ko Darkrai, and then proceed to setup if it so desires. As for strong priority and faster mon, Accelgor, most scarf users, Techiniloom, Banded Conkeldurr, Scizor and Dragonite (though Dragonite is icky).

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Also, Darkrai is base 125, I think.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Invalid's Darkrai, for those curious, runs Dark Pulse, Dark Void, Focus Blast, and Psychic with a life orb. And it's difficult to counter, but sacrfices nasty plot and substitute.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:33 pm

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic

Invalid's set.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:58 pm

I agree to the whole CHECK list. But setting up flame orb ahead of time is slightly less reliable in that 1 particular instance it's a much better set in general.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:59 pm

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Sleep Talk on conkeldurr is perrty dumb, but it would work. Just, the list is fairly sound and massive. By the way, my next emergency vote is primeape to standard, because koing ubers makes you standard.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:01 pm

Well the problem with using magic bounce to stop Darkrai is that both users are psychic. So if they have wifi clause on or they've seen your magic bouncer already they can trick you into foddering it off with a STAB Dark Pulse.... Just pointing out that it's a risky tactic to try. Sableye can priority taunt it to prevent Dark Voids but who else uses that these days? :/

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:38 pm

Frost is dumb for arguing wifi clause on a no preview sever. And sableye. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:43 pm

I am not dumb I've had a billion wifi clause challenges today XD Of course I don't use it but other people still do anyway so it's not like you can just ignore it. And Sableye is just a check. I only meant that it can taunt it. Gawd Kingtrace XD

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:27 pm

Change, Darkrai is fine, with all the Technilooms these days along with Scizor, Terrkaion, Scarves, and Sleep Clause Darkrai's really nothing.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:05 pm

Black panda, this is the discussion thread, not voting. Voting is http://breakdown.forumotion.com/t258-emergency-darkrai-tiering-vote.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:23 pm

No one really commented on this, but would it be possile to allow Darkrai without Dark Void? (similar to Blaziken being banned with Speed Boost) Obviously, it wouldn't then be 'broken' as some people say, but it would defnitely deserve to be in standard because of its stats and moves.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:31 pm

I really don't know about that one. For now, if it's released, we'll release it as a whole. If that ends up being broken, we can consider other options. I don't really think move bans are a direction we should enter.

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PostSubject: Re: Darkrai discussion thread   Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:44 pm

kingtrace wrote:
I really don't know about that one. For now, if it's released, we'll release it as a whole. If that ends up being broken, we can consider other options. I don't really think move bans are a direction we should enter.

Right now though, I can't think of any other Pokemon that deserve the move ban besides Darkrai. So, I don't think that we would use the move bans all that much. Most of the time, if a certain Pokemon is unstoppable in standard play, then it is usually banned and sent to Ubers. In Darkrai's case, Dark Void makes it unique and powerful; without Dark Void Darkrai becomes less 'broken' in some peoples' eyes, but still retains its great stats and moves.

I would be interested to find out how popular Darkrai becomes if it can't use Dark Void.
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